Why be good?

[Ravenshire]

---

Randy, notice that you did nothing else than repeat your theologian justifications without any regards of history - real history, not legends. And Cahtolic mean nothing else than "whole", so the whole church as understood when they came to power, which was in the late 4th century.

You also didn't in any way adress that there wasn't a "whole" church before that time, but everyone went on their merry ways according to their understanding. We're talking about the church of Rome when we're talking about Catholics, since everything else is legend at it's purest and not in any way supported by historical facts.

Did you notice that Ignatius uses the phrase "catholic church" without introducing it in the year AD 107?

And have you ever read all of these Early Church Fathers who referred to the "one" Catholic Church prior to the Edict of Milan:

The Martyrdom of Polycarp


"The church of God that sojourns at Smyrna, to the church of God sojourning in Philomelium - and to all of the congregations of the holy and Catholic Church in every place." (The Martyrdom of St. Polycarp)
 
“When at last he had finished his prayer, in which he remembered all who had met with him ant any time, both small and great, both those with and those without renown, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world.” (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, 8:1, [A.D. 156]).

“And certainly the most admirable Polycarp was one of these [elect], in whose times among us he showed himself an apostolic and prophetic teacher and bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna.” (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2, [A.D. 156]).
 
"Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Savior of our souls, the Governor of our bodies, and the Shepherd of the Catholic Church throughout the world." (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, [A.D. 156]).

Irenaeus

 

The Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said (Against Heresies 1:10 [A.D. 189]).

 
Tertullian

“Where was [the heretic] Marcian, that shipmaster of Pontus, the zealous student of Stoicism? Where was Valentinus, the disciple of Platonism? For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago – in the reign of Antoninus [AD 138-161] for the most part – and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus [AD 175-189], until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled. . . . Afterward . . . Marcian professed repentance and agreed to the conditions granted to him – that he should receive reconciliation if he restored to the Church all the others whom he had been training for perdition; he was prevented, however, by death.” (Demurrer Against the Heretics, 20, [A.D. 200]).


Clement of Alexandria

“From what has been said, then, it seems clear to me that the true Church, that which is really ancient, is one; and in it are enrolled those who, in accord with a design, are just. . . . We say, therefore, that in substance, in concept, in origin and in eminence, the ancient and Catholic Church is alone, gathering as it does into the unity of the one faith which results from the familiar covenants, - or rather, from the one covenant in different times, by the will of the one God and through the one Lord, - those already chosen, those predestined by God who knew before the foundation of the world that they would be just.” (Stromaties 7:17:107:3 [A.D. 202]).
 
"... There is one true Church, the really ancient Church into which are enrolled those who are righteous according to Gods ordinance.... In essence, in idea, in origin, in preeminence we say that the ancient Catholic Church is the only Church ..."
 
Cyprian of Carthage

“They who have not peace themselves now offer peace to others. They who have withdrawn from the Church promise to lead back and to recall the lapsed to the Church. There is one God and one Christ, and one Church, and one Chair founded on Peter by the word of the Lord. It is not possible to set up another altar or for there to be another priesthood besides that one altar and that one priesthood. Whoever has gathered elsewhere is scattering.” (Letter of Cyprian to All His People 43 (40), 5 [A.D. 251]).
 
"The house of God is one, and there can be no salvation to anyone except in the church." (Letter 61 [AD 250]).
 
“Peter speaks there, on whom the Church was to be built, teaching and showing in the name of the Church, that although a rebellious and arrogant multitude of those who will not hear or obey may depart, yet the Church does not depart from Christ; and they are the Church who are a people united to the priest, and the flock which adheres to its pastor. Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God’s priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another.” (Letters 66 [A.D. 253]).
 
St. Victorinus
 
"The Catholic Church is one." (Against Arius [AD 280]).
 

---

I find it amusing that we don't believe any of the fairy tales, but you keep trying to convince us that your fairy tale is the right one.

[Cyberman]

Of course. It's completely different.

You have to please others for legitimate reasons. Christians only do it for the cookie. 

Make that a supernatural cookie which can never interact with your taste buds and you might just about have it.

Make that a promise of a magic cookie that someone tells you is waiting for you, always just out of reach, but if you transgress against a set of arbitrary, contradictory, and archaic rules, even by thinking about it, you not only don't get the cookie but you get your arse kicked forever. Then we're starting to get closer to the scam.

[Longhorn]

Yo Randy.....I'm really curious about supposed 'Judeo-Christian' values modern Western societies are based on that you mentioned earlier....care to elaborate?

[pocaracas]

Hey Randy... I'm still waiting for you to read up on what "truth" is...

In the meantime, I'll nag you with one detail.. perhaps it's my history that's awry on this detail, but you'll know.
I'm hiding all the stuff I don't care about on this quote:

---

Randy, notice that you did nothing else than repeat your theologian justifications without any regards of history - real history, not legends. And Cahtolic mean nothing else than "whole", so the whole church as understood when they came to power, which was in the late 4th century.

You also didn't in any way adress that there wasn't a "whole" church before that time, but everyone went on their merry ways according to their understanding. We're talking about the church of Rome when we're talking about Catholics, since everything else is legend at it's purest and not in any way supported by historical facts.

Did you notice that Ignatius uses the phrase "catholic church" without introducing it in the year AD 107?

And have you ever read all of these Early Church Fathers who referred to the "one" Catholic Church prior to the Edict of Milan:

The Martyrdom of Polycarp


"The church of God that sojourns at Smyrna, to the church of God sojourning in Philomelium - and to all of the congregations of the holy and Catholic Church in every place." (The Martyrdom of St. Polycarp)
 
“When at last he had finished his prayer, in which he remembered all who had met with him ant any time, both small and great, both those with and those without renown, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world.” (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, 8:1, [A.D. 156]).

“And certainly the most admirable Polycarp was one of these [elect], in whose times among us he showed himself an apostolic and prophetic teacher and bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna.” (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2, [A.D. 156]).
 
"Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Savior of our souls, the Governor of our bodies, and the Shepherd of the Catholic Church throughout the world." (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, [A.D. 156]).

---

Irenaeus

 

The Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said (Against Heresies 1:10 [A.D. 189]).

 
Tertullian

“Where was [the heretic] Marcian, that shipmaster of Pontus, the zealous student of Stoicism? Where was Valentinus, the disciple of Platonism? For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago – in the reign of Antoninus [AD 138-161] for the most part – and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus [AD 175-189], until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled. . . . Afterward . . . Marcian professed repentance and agreed to the conditions granted to him – that he should receive reconciliation if he restored to the Church all the others whom he had been training for perdition; he was prevented, however, by death.” (Demurrer Against the Heretics, 20, [A.D. 200]).

---

Clement of Alexandria

“From what has been said, then, it seems clear to me that the true Church, that which is really ancient, is one; and in it are enrolled those who, in accord with a design, are just. . . . We say, therefore, that in substance, in concept, in origin and in eminence, the ancient and Catholic Church is alone, gathering as it does into the unity of the one faith which results from the familiar covenants, - or rather, from the one covenant in different times, by the will of the one God and through the one Lord, - those already chosen, those predestined by God who knew before the foundation of the world that they would be just.” (Stromaties 7:17:107:3 [A.D. 202]).
 
"... There is one true Church, the really ancient Church into which are enrolled those who are righteous according to Gods ordinance.... In essence, in idea, in origin, in preeminence we say that the ancient Catholic Church is the only Church ..."
 
Cyprian of Carthage

“They who have not peace themselves now offer peace to others. They who have withdrawn from the Church promise to lead back and to recall the lapsed to the Church. There is one God and one Christ, and one Church, and one Chair founded on Peter by the word of the Lord. It is not possible to set up another altar or for there to be another priesthood besides that one altar and that one priesthood. Whoever has gathered elsewhere is scattering.” (Letter of Cyprian to All His People 43 (40), 5 [A.D. 251]).
 
"The house of God is one, and there can be no salvation to anyone except in the church." (Letter 61 [AD 250]).
 
“Peter speaks there, on whom the Church was to be built, teaching and showing in the name of the Church, that although a rebellious and arrogant multitude of those who will not hear or obey may depart, yet the Church does not depart from Christ; and they are the Church who are a people united to the priest, and the flock which adheres to its pastor. Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God’s priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another.” (Letters 66 [A.D. 253]).
 
St. Victorinus
 
"The Catholic Church is one." (Against Arius [AD 280]).
 

---

I saw a mentioning of a church of Rome... dated from the year 200... prior to the establishment (as far as I'm aware) of the actual Roman Catholic Church by Constantine with the Council of Nicaea.
It feels like the guy is talking about something that didn't exist yet.

Or am I to assume as true the legend that a guy named Peter actually went to Rome and successfully started a church?


Also, please avoid writing in red or green, as they are the colors that admins and mods use, respectively, in their official capacities, and may be misinterpreted.

[Thumpalumpacus]

But conversely, I think the "Mad Max" analogy used much earlier might have some truth to it in the total absence of God.

Japan has a much lower crime rate than America, despite the fact that it is by vast majority non-Christian.

You may "think" all you want, but when it's self-serving bullshit that is contradicted by real-world examples, you only reveal the shallow nature of your examinations.

We already have a total absence of god in our daily lives. He isn't there. He is non-existent. You have wasted so much of your life kneeling at the feet of a phantom. I honestly pity you in some small way.

Pity is wasted upon anyone who prefers to live on his knees, who deliberately abdicates his moral faculties, who can think for himself but chooses to not do so.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'm not following this at all. Sorry.

Yeah, you clearly don't get my point -- perhaps deliberately? You tried to use the fact that the names were the same throughout Christendom as evidence of their veracity. That isn't the case, as you yourself have pointed out that the names being the same was a result of manual propagation. Strike that "argument" from your armory.

I'm not going to rehash the point any more; my sense is that you're being deliberately obtuse in order to avoid admitting error, or disingenuousness -- I'm unsure which.

You really should read some books on demon possession.

No thanks ... I burned out on science fiction in college.

Of course. It's completely different.

You have to please others for legitimate reasons. Christians only do it for the imaginary cookie. 

fyp

[abaris]

No thanks ... I burned out on science fiction in college.

It's not science fiction. Demons make for some pretty good trashy horror stories, but they're certainly not science, even when coupled with fiction.

[Randy Carson]

Did you notice that Ignatius uses the phrase "catholic church" without introducing it in the year AD 107?

You did notice that what little we know of Ignatious is his own writings addressing heresy?  If it was all one big happy united church, who were these heretics?  Ignatious, is not proof of a united church, rather the reverse, he's proof there were Christians who believed rather differently, including in particular the Gnostics and the Docetists. 

Gee, I don't think there has been any attempt to claim anything else.

There were lots of heretical movements in the earliest days, and little by little, the Church worked through each of the theological disputes involved and established what was orthodox. This is where the creeds came from.

Now, you might argue: See? There were LOTS of "churches" but the Catholic Church simply won the battle. Well, yeah, it did, but winning is not the only consideration. Catholicism "won" because its theology was better and because it was apostolic in origin and because Jesus promised to build it.  Apostolic succession is an important factor.

But consider what these three Early Church Fathers had to say about the clear distinction between the Catholic Church and the heretics:

Cyril of Jerusalem

[The Church] is called Catholic, then, because it extends over the whole world, from end to end of the earth, and because it teaches universally and infallibly each and every doctrine which must come to the knowledge of men, concerning things visible and invisible, heavenly and earthly, and because it brings every race of men into subjection to godliness” (Catechetical Lectures 18:23, [A.D. 350]).

 
"And if you ever are visiting in cities, do not inquire simply where the house of the Lord is - for the others, sects of impious, attempt to call their dens 'houses of the Lord' - nor ask merely where the Church is, but where is the Catholic Church, for this is the name peculiar to this holy Church, the Mother of us all, which is the Spouse of our Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God." (Cathechetical Lectures 18:26, [A.D. 350])
 
Athanasius
 
"Let us note that the very tradition, teaching, and faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning, which the Lord gave, was preached by the Apostles, and was preserved by the Fathers. On this was the Church founded; and if anyone departs from this, he neither is nor any longer ought to be called a Christian." (St. Athanasius, "Four Letters to Serapion of Thmuisc," [c.AD  360].
 
Augustine

“We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church, which is Catholic and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. When heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. They will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name, which the whole world employs in her regard.” (The True Religion 7:12, [A.D. 390]).

"[T]he very name of Catholic . . . belongs to this Church alone . . . so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘catholic,' when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house" (Against the Letter of Mani Called `The Foundation' 4:5 [AD 397]).

---

Hey Randy... I'm still waiting for you to read up on what "truth" is...

In the meantime, I'll nag you with one detail.. perhaps it's my history that's awry on this detail, but you'll know.
I'm hiding all the stuff I don't care about on this quote:

---

Did you notice that Ignatius uses the phrase "catholic church" without introducing it in the year AD 107?

And have you ever read all of these Early Church Fathers who referred to the "one" Catholic Church prior to the Edict of Milan:

The Martyrdom of Polycarp


"The church of God that sojourns at Smyrna, to the church of God sojourning in Philomelium - and to all of the congregations of the holy and Catholic Church in every place." (The Martyrdom of St. Polycarp)
 
“When at last he had finished his prayer, in which he remembered all who had met with him ant any time, both small and great, both those with and those without renown, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world.” (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, 8:1, [A.D. 156]).

“And certainly the most admirable Polycarp was one of these [elect], in whose times among us he showed himself an apostolic and prophetic teacher and bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna.” (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2, [A.D. 156]).
 
"Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Savior of our souls, the Governor of our bodies, and the Shepherd of the Catholic Church throughout the world." (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, [A.D. 156]).

---

Irenaeus

 

The Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said (Against Heresies 1:10 [A.D. 189]).

 
Tertullian

“Where was [the heretic] Marcian, that shipmaster of Pontus, the zealous student of Stoicism? Where was Valentinus, the disciple of Platonism? For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago – in the reign of Antoninus [AD 138-161] for the most part – and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus [AD 175-189], until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled. . . . Afterward . . . Marcian professed repentance and agreed to the conditions granted to him – that he should receive reconciliation if he restored to the Church all the others whom he had been training for perdition; he was prevented, however, by death.” (Demurrer Against the Heretics, 20, [A.D. 200]).

---

Clement of Alexandria

“From what has been said, then, it seems clear to me that the true Church, that which is really ancient, is one; and in it are enrolled those who, in accord with a design, are just. . . . We say, therefore, that in substance, in concept, in origin and in eminence, the ancient and Catholic Church is alone, gathering as it does into the unity of the one faith which results from the familiar covenants, - or rather, from the one covenant in different times, by the will of the one God and through the one Lord, - those already chosen, those predestined by God who knew before the foundation of the world that they would be just.” (Stromaties 7:17:107:3 [A.D. 202]).
 
"... There is one true Church, the really ancient Church into which are enrolled those who are righteous according to Gods ordinance.... In essence, in idea, in origin, in preeminence we say that the ancient Catholic Church is the only Church ..."
 
Cyprian of Carthage

“They who have not peace themselves now offer peace to others. They who have withdrawn from the Church promise to lead back and to recall the lapsed to the Church. There is one God and one Christ, and one Church, and one Chair founded on Peter by the word of the Lord. It is not possible to set up another altar or for there to be another priesthood besides that one altar and that one priesthood. Whoever has gathered elsewhere is scattering.” (Letter of Cyprian to All His People 43 (40), 5 [A.D. 251]).
 
"The house of God is one, and there can be no salvation to anyone except in the church." (Letter 61 [AD 250]).
 
“Peter speaks there, on whom the Church was to be built, teaching and showing in the name of the Church, that although a rebellious and arrogant multitude of those who will not hear or obey may depart, yet the Church does not depart from Christ; and they are the Church who are a people united to the priest, and the flock which adheres to its pastor. Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God’s priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another.” (Letters 66 [A.D. 253]).
 
St. Victorinus
 
"The Catholic Church is one." (Against Arius [AD 280]).
 

---

I saw a mentioning of a church of Rome... dated from the year 200... prior to the establishment (as far as I'm aware) of the actual Roman Catholic Church by Constantine with the Council of Nicaea.
It feels like the guy is talking about something that didn't exist yet.

I posted this in this forum previously...

The early Church - the Church founded by Christ as promised in Matthew 16:18 - was that which was originally known as “the Way” (cf. Acts 24:14). Later, those individuals who followed Christ began to be called “Christians” beginning at Antioch (cf. Acts 11:26). As early as 107 A.D., those same individuals referred to themselves collectively as the “Catholic Church”. In a letter to the Church of Smyrna, Ignatius of Antioch wrote:

 
You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery (priest) as you would the Apostles. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, A.D. 107, [8,1])
 
Notice that Ignatius does not take pains to introduce the term "Catholic Church"; instead he uses it in a manner suggesting that the name was already in use and familiar to his audience. This further suggests that the name, Catholic Church, had to have been coined much earlier in order to have achieved wide circulation by the time of this writing. In other words, the Christian assembly was calling itself the Catholic Church during the lifetime of the last Apostle, John, who died near the end of the first century. John, the beloved disciple, may have thought of himself as a member of the Catholic Church!
 
The Catholic Church began with Peter and the Apostles and continued without interruption or cessation through their disciples (Ignatius, Irenaeus, Polycarp, Clement, Justin Martyr, etc.) down to the present day. As a side note, it appears that the believers in Antioch may have coined both terms still in use today: “Christian” and “Catholic Church” – terms they used to describe the one body of believers in Christ.

Or am I to assume as true the legend that a guy named Peter actually went to Rome and successfully started a church?

Legend?

Ignatius of Antioch

"Not as Peter and Paul did, do I command you [Romans]. They were apostles, and I am a convict" (Letter to the Romans 4:3 [A.D. 110]).
 
Dionysius of Corinth

"You [Pope Soter] have also, by your very admonition, brought together the planting that was made by Peter and Paul at Rome and at Corinth; for both of them alike planted in our Corinth and taught us; and both alike, teaching similarly in Italy, suffered martyrdom at the same time" (Letter to Pope Soter [A.D. 170], in Eusebius, History of the Church 2:25:8).
 
Irenaeus

"Matthew also issued among the Hebrews a written Gospel in their own language, while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church" (Against Heresies, 3, 1:1 [A.D. 189]).

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops qf the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid. 3:3:2).

"The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the church [of Rome], they handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus. Paul makes mention of this Linus in the epistle to Timothy [2 Tim. 4:21]. To him succeeded Anencletus, and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was chosen for the episcopate. He had seen the blessed apostles and was acquainted with them. It might be said that he still heard the echoes of the preaching of the apostles and had their traditions before his eyes. And not only he, for there were many still remaining who had been instructed by the apostles. In the time of Clement, no small dissension having arisen among the brethren in Corinth, the Church in Rome sent a very strong letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace and renewing their faith. . . To this Clement, Evaristus succeeded. . . and now, in the twelfth place after the apostles, the lot of the episcopate [of Rome] has fallen to Eleutherus. In this order, and by the teaching of the apostles handed down in the Church, the preaching of the truth has come down to us" (ibid. 3:3:3 [inter AD. 180-190]).

Tertullian

“How happy is that church . . . where Peter endured a passion like that of the Lord, where Paul was crowned in a death like John’s [referring to John the Baptist, both he and Paul being beheaded]” (The Demurrer Against the Heretics [A.D. 200]).

“This is the way in which the apostolic churches transmit their lists: like the church of the Smyrnaeans, which records that Polycarp was placed there by John; like the church of the Romans, where Clement was ordained by Peter” (ibid.).

Cyprian

"With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (Epistle to Cornelius [Bishop of Rome] 59:14 [A.D. 252]).
Optatus

"In the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter, the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head - that is why he is also called Cephas - of all the apostles, the one chair in which unity is maintained by all. Neither do the apostles proceed individually on their own, and anyone who would [presume to] set up another chair in opposition to that single chair would, by that very fact, be a schismatic and a sinner. . . .Recall, then, the origins of your chair, those of you who wish to claim for yourselves the title of holy Church" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [circa A.D. 367]).
Augustine

"If the very order of episcopal succession is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them [the bishops of Rome] from Peter himself, to whom, as to one representing the whole Church, the Lord said, 'Upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer it.' Peter was succeeded by Linus, Linus by Clement . . . In this order of succession a Donatist bishop is not to be found" (Epistle to Generosus 53:1:2 [A.D. 400]).

Also, please avoid writing in red or green, as they are the colors that admins and mods use, respectively, in their official capacities, and may be misinterpreted.

I don't see this in the Forum Rules, and I like red because it stands out. Is this really going to be a big deal?

---

I'm not following this at all. Sorry.

Yeah, you clearly don't get my point -- perhaps deliberately?  You tried to use the fact that the names were the same throughout Christendom as evidence of their veracity. That isn't the case, as you yourself have pointed out that the names being the same was a result of manual propagation. Strike that "argument" from your armory.

I have made the point repeatedly that the gospels were known by their traditional names, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, throughout all the Christian churches from the beginning precisely because when they were copied and couriered to each city, the recipients were told who the author was.

I'm not sure what YOU are arguing about.

You really should read some books on demon possession.

No thanks ... I burned out on science fiction in college.

But not the fiction that science can explain everything.

[Esquilax]

But not the fiction that science can explain everything.

Aside from a series of self serving assertions, what reason do you have that science cannot explain everything?

Seriously, when are you going to learn that a network of assertions made to preserve your presupposed conclusion cannot be justification for yet more assertions?

[Jenny A]

You did notice that what little we know of Ignatious is his own writings addressing heresy?  If it was all one big happy united church, who were these heretics?  Ignatious, is not proof of a united church, rather the reverse, he's proof there were Christians who believed rather differently, including in particular the Gnostics and the Docetists. 

Gee, I don't think there has been any attempt to claim anything else.

There were lots of heretical movements in the earliest days, and little by little, the Church worked through each of the theological disputes involved and established what was orthodox. This is where the creeds came from.

Now, you might argue: See? There were LOTS of "churches" but the Catholic Church simply won the battle. Well, yeah, it did, but winning is not the only consideration. Catholicism "won" because its theology was better and because it was apostolic in origin and because Jesus promised to build it.  Apostolic succession is an important factor.

Yes, that is exactly what I do say.  And I would add, that what came out of Rome mostly won, for the simple reason that Rome held the purse strings.  Rome funded small outlying Christian communities and funded missionaries.  It's no surprise that it's ideas became dominant.   Compare Paul's other letters to his letter to the Romans.  In that letter Paul is asking for support and he's willing to modify his views, or at least soft peddle them.  As went Paul, so went many others.  

But consider what these three Early Church Fathers had to say about the clear distinction between the Catholic Church and the heretics:

Cyril of Jerusalem

[The Church] is called Catholic, then, because it extends over the whole world, from end to end of the earth, and because it teaches universally and infallibly each and every doctrine which must come to the knowledge of men, concerning things visible and invisible, heavenly and earthly, and because it brings every race of men into subjection to godliness” (Catechetical Lectures 18:23, [A.D. 350]).

 
"And if you ever are visiting in cities, do not inquire simply where the house of the Lord is - for the others, sects of impious, attempt to call their dens 'houses of the Lord' - nor ask merely where the Church is, but where is the Catholic Church, for this is the name peculiar to this holy Church, the Mother of us all, which is the Spouse of our Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God." (Cathechetical Lectures 18:26, [A.D. 350])
 
Athanasius
 
"Let us note that the very tradition, teaching, and faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning, which the Lord gave, was preached by the Apostles, and was preserved by the Fathers. On this was the Church founded; and if anyone departs from this, he neither is nor any longer ought to be called a Christian." (St. Athanasius, "Four Letters to Serapion of Thmuisc," [c.AD  360].
 
Augustine

“We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church, which is Catholic and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. When heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. They will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name, which the whole world employs in her regard.” (The True Religion 7:12, [A.D. 390]).

"[T]he very name of Catholic . . . belongs to this Church alone . . . so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘catholic,' when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house" (Against the Letter of Mani Called `The Foundation' 4:5 [AD 397]).

Yep, spoken like anyone trying to win a doctrinal war.  Don't listen to them, listen to us.  We are the largest group, and we took upon ourselves the winning name.  So?