(June 26, 2015 at 1:35 pm)paulpablo Wrote: But then surely in the past they also knew that without skin your skin can't burn, therefore even if they believed that the brain was uniquely responsible for pain they would also assume that you can't feel the pain generated from burning skin unless you have skin to burn.
As I previously stated the only information required to write the verse would be to know what the symptoms of 3rd and 4th degree burns are.
The quran doesn't say the skin has pain receptors, it says god will burn the disbelievers skin until it is roasted then replace it with more skin so they can feel the pain, so YES it is possible for them to know that roasted skin feels no pain, they simply have to know the symptoms of 3rd or 4th degree burns, and yes it is possible for them to know that roasting your skin initially will hurt.
I had given you a solid evidence that although people were observing how skin burns yet they were not considering it as important factor in the pain mechanism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_pain_theory
Quranic verses are incredibly accurate in mentioning principal scientific concepts without giving intricate details. No human was able to construe these facts in 7th century. The purpose of these scientific facts is not to educate people but to manifest authenticity of the concept that Quran is the word of God and not the word of man.
(June 27, 2015 at 12:12 am)bennyboy Wrote: I think you still haven't answered my clearest point: IF the writers of the Quran had a miraculous access to scientific truth, then they did a remarkably poor job of compiling that science into a usable system. Where are the atomic charts, and the QM diagrams? Where is even a primitive understanding of any of the things the average 10 year-old with a library card can easily pick up with a couple free hours on a Saturday?
Your approach to Quranic verses is purely materialistic. This way of conceiving them hinders you to grasp their intrinsic nature and force you to keep on affiliating Quran to human abilities.
Is not it visible to you that you are incapable of giving any reason on how and why these scientific facts appeared in 7th century. This incapacity is contingent to the fact that people in 7th century were unable to obtain scientific facts such as expansion of universe, etc. This point alone eliminates all possibilities to any contradiction.
(June 27, 2015 at 12:12 am)bennyboy Wrote: IF the Quran is miraculous, then the real miracle is that God chose to reveal so little science, and of such a poor quality, that Christian nations rose to power and came to dominate the world. Even now, the only fighting chance the muslims have is to use technology-- bombs, guns, cell phones, etc. developed mainly by Europeans and Americans, most Christian, many Jews, and very few of them muslims.
You are forcing me to repeat the same thing.
Quran is not teaching how to make lethal weapons and showing tricks on how to kill human beings more effectively. The main purpose of these scientific facts is to put emphasise over the incapacity of 7th century man to develop contemporary scientific concepts of present world.
Secondly, it seems you do not have adequate knowledge on Middle Age History.
In the Middle Ages Christian popes were against science. Galileo’s case provides an obvious evidence of that fact. In the middle ages, the greedy popes were completely drowned in their materialistic desires of possession, wealth, and power.
The time when Europeans were living in dark ages, Muslims were celebrating their golden ages.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age
They were the Muslims who brought Science, philosophy, literature, architecture, cultural organizations etc. to Europe when Europeans did not even know what soap is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in...amic_world
Muslims were the real threat to popes who were then banning all learning and rational thought and their iron-fisted theocracy, backed by a Gestapo-style inquisition prevented any science or questioning inquiry. They were twisting and corrupting Biblical verses in order to supress common people by misguiding them away from the truth.
The real trauma to Muslim academies came by the hands of Mongols and crusaders who have burned nearly all knowledge acquired by the Muslims. Popes who detest science and rationality have influenced crusaders and the Mongols to abolish Muslims along with their ocean of knowledge that literally covered all disciplines of human life.
“Hulagu himself even had a very deep hatred for everything attached to Islam. Much of this came from his BUDDHIST AND CHRISTIAN ADVISORS WHO INFLUENCED HIS POLICIES.”
Under the heading
The Invasion of the Muslim World
http://lostislamichistory.com/mongols/
“The books from Baghdad’s libraries were thrown into the Tigris River in such quantities that the river ran black with the ink from the books. The world will never truly know the extent of what knowledge was lost forever when those books were thrown into the river or burned.”
Under the heading
“The Destruction of Baghdad”
http://lostislamichistory.com/mongols/
After the fall of Muslims, Europeans have recollected the left over assets of Arab academies and developed a scientific world upon that.
(June 27, 2015 at 1:50 am)Chas Wrote: You might try actually reading the responses in this thread - your assertions have been debunked.
You are the one who is thinking that I have twisted those verses so you should be able to smooth them out.
(June 27, 2015 at 7:36 am)paulpablo Wrote: I understand none of this, what do you mean the verses aren't FOR righteous and virtuous people.
How is it possible to quote it out of context when it says various translations that allah misguides or sends
astray.
The verse you say I left out just backs up what I'm saying even further, says in simple terms, there were people who complained about not receiving a message like the quran, and god basically says hey I give my message to who I want and misguide or leave astray who I want to aswell.
So say if I disbelieve the verses of the quran because I think it's odd that god should try and talk to me in a book of ancient Arabic, god is basically saying he doesn't care, he knows best how and where to send his message. So basically god has left me astray and we know what happens to people who don't believe the verses because of the scientific miracle that is roasting peoples skins through and replacing them with more.
“The practice of quoting out of context is an informal fallacy and a type of false attribution in which a passage is removed from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its intended meaning.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of...of_context
Example 1:
DNC taking Romney’s words out of context
“I like being able to fire people” (out of context)
“I like being able to fire people who provide services to me. If– if someone doesn’t give me the good service I need, I wanna, I’m gonna say, you know, then I’m going to go get somebody else to provide that service to me.” (In context)
Example 2:
Critics of Islam, as general practice, only post verse 9:5 out of context for the intention to give a false meaning to it.
“Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.”
(PICKTHAL Translation, Quran 9:5)
To get the real perspective you should read verses from 9:1 to 9:7.
Verse one mention about a treaty between Pagan Arabs and Muslims, which the Pagans had breached. Thus, Allah gave the Pagans four months as 9:2 states in order to amend the treaty. Verse 9:4 states that the punishment prescribed in 9:5 is ONLY to those who broke the treaty and NOT to those who abided by the treaty. Therefore, the context of 9:5 is of war with the pagan Arabs who broke the treaty yet refused to amend it in four months. Critics of Islam remain shy of posting the next verse, 9:6, as it contains the answer to their deception:
“And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not” 9:6
Verse 9:6 is the great example of promoting peace even in the time of war. This verse does not only say that you release those who seek protection but it goes even further and states to protect them! In the present international scenario, even a kind, peace-loving army General, during a battle, may let the enemy soldiers go free, if they want peace. Conversely, which army General will ever tell his soldiers, that if the enemy soldiers want peace during a battle, do not just let them go free, but also escort them to a place of security?
Coming to your query:
“I understand none of this, what do you mean the verses aren't FOR righteous and virtuous people.”
You have attempted to transform a merciful God into a tyrant one by quoting verse 6:125 out of context. I had given you a fair explanation on how people may change the meaning of any text by quoting it out of context.
My previous response was clear enough in which I had exposed the true meaning of verse 6:125, which in my opinion you are ignoring deliberately.
Anyway, here is my second explanation.
Suppose you are some powerful king and your people have fetched you some men who have broken some supreme laws on purpose. You have full authority to punish them or to let them go free. To some you announce punishments and some of them you let go free after giving warnings. This act will show your wisdom and compassionate characteristic.
However, you will not punish your peaceful citizens who live by abiding the laws because you are not a tyrant ruler who love to have fun with people’s lives.
That is the meaning of my previous response.
“Verse 125 is for the transgressors not for righteous and virtuous people who live their lives by submitting their wills to the Will of God and who obey God’s commandments and endeavour to get close to God.
People who break the divine laws with intent and transgress the limits set by God are the arrogant people and verses 124 and 125 explicitly talks about such people. OUT FROM THOSE TRANSGRESSORS TO SOME GOD WILL GIVE THE GUIDANCE AND LEAVE SOME ASTRAY.”
In my previous response, I have also mentioned that:
“GOD HAS PROMISED TO GIVE RIGHTEOUS PEOPLE HIS GUIDANCE AND REWARD.”
“Then those who believe in Allah, and hold fast to Him,- soon will He admit them to mercy and grace from Himself, and GUIDE them to Himself by a straight way.”
An Nisaa (4)
-Verse 175-
“And those who strive in Our (cause),- We will certainly GUIDE them to our Paths: For verily Allah is with those who do right.”
Al 'Ankabuut (29)
-Verse 69-
(June 27, 2015 at 8:49 am)bennyboy Wrote: Minimalist Wrote:
Presence of scientific facts in Quran is an evidence that this scripture cannot be the work of human hands and that is it. At several occasions, I have pushed this idea but it seems that you have some issues in understanding this simple point.
About these alleged "facts" of yours.....
Quote:Sahih International
Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of dark mud, and he found near it a people.
18:86
Let's talk about a bunch of primitive fuckheads who thought the sun set into a puddle at night.
Bennyboy Wrote:
Don't you understand? ". . . puddle at night" is clearly a hidden reference to dark matter, and this passage is saying that when the sun is destroyed by dark matter, it will destroy the Earth.
Come on. . . how can you NOT see the scientific greatness of this passage of the greatest and most perfect science text of all time? Come on come ooooonnnn *stamps feet impatiently*
Do you think sun (literally) rise in the East and sets in the West (literally). If sun is not rising (literally) in the East and not setting in the West (literally) then why all newspapers around the world are writing time of SUNRISE and time of SUNSET in their daily editions. Why do not all news agencies use scientifically accurate terminologies instead of SUNRISE and SUNSET?
Use your common sense.
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