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RE: Miracle
July 13, 2015 at 5:34 am
(This post was last modified: July 13, 2015 at 5:36 am by bennyboy.)
(July 13, 2015 at 4:03 am)excitedpenguin Wrote: By your own definition a miracle is impossible even to imagine, whereas a Christian would say Jesus coming down from the sky to raise the dead and take us into heaven would be a miracle, but that can be thought of. You can depict in your mind Jesus doing all those things. You can imagine a dead person coming out of a tomb. Hell, you see it on TV all the time. You can imagine heaven as some sort of place where ancient greeks used to chill out.
I can easily imagine a miracle, and the ability to imagine has little to do with our understanding of how the universe works. Let's say a priest touches an armless man, and a new arm instantly grows. This violates what we believe about physical reality, in two ways: 1) it's biologically impossible, because human DNA doesn't allow the capacity for limb regeneration; 2) it's physically impossible, because the amount of resources required to achieve this feat (instant growth) would so ravage the rest of the body that it would probably cause instant death. So if a priest could achieve this, and he did so solely on the basis of an appeal to God and not some hidden technology, I'd definitely call it a miracle.
But a priest never prays for this, because he knows his prayer will be unanswered. Instead, he will pray for someone with a high fever, and claim a miracle when the fever breaks the next day.
Harris has used a double logic fail to arrive at his (obviously predetermined) conclusion. First, he claims that the existence hundreds of years ago of scientific knowledge is necessarily a miracle. Then, he takes the simple idea of growth (obviously a new thing might "grow" into something greater over time), and imbues it with all the complexity and wonder of modern science. But unless he can show that the "expansion" in the Quran is really the "expansion" of the universe from the Big Bang singularity, then all he really has is a statement about new things growing, which has "miraculously" been known since people started having babies.
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RE: Miracle
July 13, 2015 at 5:43 am
(July 13, 2015 at 5:34 am)bennyboy Wrote: (July 13, 2015 at 4:03 am)excitedpenguin Wrote: By your own definition a miracle is impossible even to imagine, whereas a Christian would say Jesus coming down from the sky to raise the dead and take us into heaven would be a miracle, but that can be thought of. You can depict in your mind Jesus doing all those things. You can imagine a dead person coming out of a tomb. Hell, you see it on TV all the time. You can imagine heaven as some sort of place where ancient greeks used to chill out.
I can easily imagine a miracle, and the ability to imagine has little to do with our understanding of how the universe works. Let's say a priest touches an armless man, and a new arm instantly grows. This violates what we believe about physical reality, in two ways: 1) it's biologically impossible, because human DNA doesn't allow the capacity for limb regeneration; 2) it's physically impossible, because the amount of resources required to achieve this feat (instant growth) would so ravage the rest of the body that it would probably cause instant death. So if a priest could achieve this, and he did so solely on the basis of an appeal to God and not some hidden technology, I'd definitely call it a miracle.
But a priest never prays for this, because he knows his prayer will be unanswered. Instead, he will pray for someone with a high fever, and claim a miracle when the fever breaks the next day.
Harris has used a double logic fail to arrive at his (obviously predetermined) conclusion. First, he claims that the existence hundreds of years ago of scientific knowledge is necessarily a miracle. Then, he takes the simple idea of growth (obviously a new thing might "grow" into something greater over time), and imbues it with all the complexity and wonder of modern science. But unless he can show that the "expansion" in the Quran is really the "expansion" of the universe from the Big Bang singularity, then all he really has is a statement about new things growing, which has "miraculously" been known since people started having babies.
I was merely referring to your stated criterion for consideration for [a] miracle. That meaning of a miracle can't be imagined, as we can't imagine something that contradicts every single thing we know. Such a thing can't even exist, one would hope.
The ability to grow limbs without dying can be easily imagined as some creatures can actually do this. We might as well one day, if nano techonology continues evolving at the rate it does, at least that's what various futurists would have us believe.
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RE: Miracle
July 13, 2015 at 5:53 am
(This post was last modified: July 13, 2015 at 6:14 am by Longhorn.)
(July 12, 2015 at 8:51 pm)Harris Wrote: (July 8, 2015 at 6:09 pm)Neimenovic Wrote: Whaat? I'm asking you to show me where I can find the germ theory in the quran. I mean, that would be pretty dang useful to the 7th century muslims. Why didn't Allah find it appropriate to tell them about it?
To live is to suffer, to survive is to find some meaning in the suffering
Anyway, nothing in this universe is immortal. If you are afraid of temporary sufferings of your temporary life, which is a natural feeling, then you should be afraid of eternal sufferings more about which Quran is giving warnings. Quran is giving miraculous scientific facts to manifest the authenticity of all those warnings.
The purpose of Quran is to give warning to arrogant and good tiding to the humble believer. Quran is not intended to give a Germ Theory or science tutorial.
I'm not afraid of suffering, I just suffer. There is no reason to believe in eternal torment. A life sentence like this is cruel enough.
dude. you said there are scientific facts in the quran. why not the germ theory? it could've been very useful. many people's lives would've been saved and its divinity would've been confirmed, because nobody would have heard of the germ theory unitl the 17th century,
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RE: Miracle
July 13, 2015 at 6:02 am
(This post was last modified: July 13, 2015 at 6:03 am by robvalue.)
Simplified probability chart for diagnosing miracles:
90% Very common event
50% Common event
10% Rare event
1% Very rare event
0.1% Miracle (caused by my god)
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RE: Miracle
July 13, 2015 at 6:56 am
(July 13, 2015 at 5:43 am)excitedpenguin Wrote: The ability to grow limbs without dying can be easily imagined as some creatures can actually do this. We might as well one day, if nano techonology continues evolving at the rate it does, at least that's what various futurists would have us believe.
That's why I specified that the priest is not relying on a new technology.
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RE: Miracle
July 13, 2015 at 10:21 am
(July 12, 2015 at 9:27 pm)Beccs Wrote: Miracle:
I got up this morning.
Praise be to Bastet (it was a cat that woke me up).
Bastet is the perfect name for a cat. So versatile. It can take any adjective - lazy, greedy, hairy, aaahgerroffmeyoufucking, and so on.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: Miracle
July 17, 2015 at 12:34 am
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RE: Miracle
July 17, 2015 at 12:47 am
How can you prove all that stupid bullshit you just claimed?
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RE: Miracle
July 17, 2015 at 1:03 am
(This post was last modified: July 17, 2015 at 1:03 am by The Grand Nudger.)
No, the quran doesn't give warnings, you do, pissant. Don't you have anyone else to threaten? Pickings can't be that slim. Go tell the local gays they're going to burn for their sinfulness or something.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Miracle
July 17, 2015 at 4:35 am
(July 17, 2015 at 1:03 am)Rhythm Wrote: No, the quran doesn't give warnings, you do, pissant. Don't you have anyone else to threaten? Pickings can't be that slim. Go tell the local gays they're going to burn for their sinfulness or something.
Why would you inflict Harris on the gay community? Have they not suffered enough?
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