What IS good, and how do we determine it?

[Catholic_Lady]

You may have missed it. Copied and pasted, here is what I said at the end of the post:

"Of course, you don't need to believe in afterlife for that, but it can help keep things into perspective in the sense that there is much more than just materialistic things of this life. It is what helps me personally."

What makes you think I don't have other, metamaterialistic considerations in mind? What stereotypes are you applying that you're not acknowledging?

Rest assured, I don't think that, and I am not stereotyping anything. I am not sure how to even address this because I have no idea how you came to those conclusions. I apologize if that was your take way from what I said. Please know that you have misunderstood.

Also keep in mind the context I say all of this in. I was told that the belief in after life is harmful.

And it is. Belief in an afterlife saps the will to address issues in the here and now.  We see such impulses not only in your own faith, but in many religions around the world.  The idea that your god will make up for everything in an afterlife excuses evil. The idea that reward comes in the afterlife means that people don't understand how to appreciate those who treat them right in the here and now.

I'm a big believer in the idea of clean accounts.  When I do something wrong, I should apologize and ask forgiveness as soon as I recognize things.  And when I see the opportunity to do right, I believe it is imperative to act on that opportunity forthwith. This idea that both punishment and reward is delayed for an afterlife not only lacks evidence, but is also derogatory to the good life now.

If it took men to overthrow the Third Reich, whose supporters were Christians, what use is any conception of afterlife at all? The Christian conception of afterlife surely didn't dissuade many Germans from supporting the most evil regime in the 20th Century.

"Reward" in an afterlife should not be a person's reason to do good. Neither should believing in an afterlife mean you don't care for the lives of the other people around you. A Christian can, and should believe these 2 things.

Oh, I know you didn't do it for me.

The thanks was just to show that I acknowledge and appreciate your kind gesture.

Once again, please be careful not to misunderstand me. I never said God or an afterlife is needed for doing good. I'm actually surprised that after such long discussions, you would still think I believe that. But that is probably me fault.

It's not that I think that you believe that -- but rather, that the words you're spouting  put across a belief that you not only have abjured here, but that needs to be answered for the lurkers who aren't posting.[/quote]

I'm glad you know I don't believe this. It is best not to accuse me of it if you it is not warranted.

I think I missed that post. My apologies. What did I disagree with myself on?
[/quote]

All throughout this thread. I don't have time to read back and link each instance.
[/quote]

I am taken by surprised to know that you think I have been contradicting myself throughout this whole thread. I can honestly say I have no idea how I came across that way. Perhaps I don't do a good job of explaining myself very well.

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I missed this earlier, but what helps you to determine the moral status of catholic churches position on contraception?  How do you know what -is- good...or more specifically, what is not...in this instance?

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/birth-control

(Also..are you beginning to understand our reaction to the OP question...after having been asked it yourself so many times by us, in this thread?  What's it like on the other end, for you?)

I'm sorry, I don't understand these questions. Can you rephrase?

[Huggy Bear]

I usually try to be pretty polite to most of our resident Christians.  I feel their pain at being suddenly in the minority.  However,  though I generally like people and most people I know are Christian, I find I don't much like many Christians on this forum.  The trend in Christians here is towards trolls, though we have and have had many fine exceptions.  We also have borderline cases who have come to convert covertly, and become angry, hurt and belligerent in turns when they discover this is not a Christian recruiting group.

Having dealt with Huggy for a few months I have every sympathy with Parker, whether I behave like him or not.  If you search Huggy's posts you might reach a similar conclusion.

What exactly do YOU take issue with? I have very little interaction with you.

[The Grand Nudger]

'm sorry, I don't understand these questions. Can you rephrase?

Not a problem.

The catholic church has a position on contraception.  In this thread you've asked us "what -is- good, and how do we determine it?"  You've also stated (iirc) that god helps you to understand -why- things are good (or bad, ostensibly).

What is your moral assessment of the churches position on contraception*?  Is it moral, or immoral...is it "good" or "bad"...and how do you know that, how has god helped you to understand -why- it is good or bad (whichever you go with)...and would you share that -why- with us?

The additional bit, in parenthesis at the bottom, essentially asked you how you take these questions when they are asked -of you-, and your experience with this conversation up to this point. You might be feeling a little bit of what we feel in this conversation...you might be having a common experience with us, right now. So...what is it like?

*More academically, the church refers to natural law....and gods disgust for the act, but is something right simply because it is natural law, and does god's disgust actually form a proper moral justification?

[Catholic_Lady]

I owe an apology to Rhythm as well as another member who's name I forgot lol.

They have both asked me my thoughts on vicarious redemption last night, and I am just now posting about it. I planned on writing a whole long post about it in my own words once I read up on it some, but at this point I think I'm just going to paste a link on here. I agree with everything it says, and I think the author covers it pretty well and puts it into words much better then I ever could:

http://www.crisismagazine.com/2002/end-n...redemption

[paulpablo]

This is kind of a spinoff of the WHY BE GOOD thread.

The question I have for atheists, isn't "why by good." I think it's simplistic and deeply flawed to think that the only reason to "be good" is to avoid Hell. And of course, I believe that anyone can be a good person regardless of beliefs.

The question I have for atheists is how do we know what IS good?

Religious or not, we all somehow know that certain things are intrinsically, universally immoral. Let's use murder as an obvious example. So if murder is wrong, where did this law come from? If this is a universal truth, where did this truth come from and who/what determined it to be what it is?

I don't believe murder is always wrong.  I also disagree when you say that there is an intrinsic morality, you live on a world where there are pacifists who wouldn't hurt a fly, and others who have insane blood lust and kill without remorse.
I guarantee even on this forum there will be a vast spectrum of what people believe is right or wrong so I wonder how you could come to the conclusion that some things are universally known to be right or wrong?

[Ashground]

Humans determine what is good on a case-by-case basis. So long as we are trying to be good and trying to be thoughtful then there's hope for us. When we don't try we don't usually go as far as 'evil', but selfishness, greed and even rudeness are by-products of not trying (in my opinion).

[Catholic_Lady]

Not a problem.

The catholic church has a position on contraception.  In this thread you've asked us "what -is- good, and how do we determine it?"  You;ve also stated that god helps you to understand -why- things are good (or bad, ostensibly).

What is your moral assessment of the churches position on contraception?  Is it moral, or immoral...is it "good" or "bad"...and how do you know that, how has god helped you to understand -why- it is good or bad (whichever you go with)...and would you share that -why- withus ?

Thanks for the clarification. I understand now.

I agree with the Church's position on contraception. It isn't that avoiding pregnancy is wrong, in and of itself, it's the means you go about doing it. Fertility monitoring is moral, but artificial contraception is not.

We believe sex is a sacred act that should remain in its pure form, and contraception changes a major aspect of that act by physically taking away a natural aspect of it... its fertility.

The notion that sex is sacred makes sense to me because it is the act that brings new life into the world. That's not its only purpose (love and bonding are another purpose), but it still is one of its purposes. An act that can create new life is a sacred act because life is sacred. And sacred things should be handled with care and kept as their pure, authentic selves.

I know you don't agree, and that is perfectly fine. But there you have it. Those are my reasons.

[The Grand Nudger]

I owe an apology to Rhythm as well as another member who's name I forgot lol.

They have both asked me my thoughts on vicarious redemption last night, and I am just now posting about it. I planned on writing a whole long post about it in my own words once I read up on it some, but at this point I think I'm just going to paste a link on here. I agree with everything it says, and I think the author covers it pretty well and puts it into words much better then I ever could:

http://www.crisismagazine.com/2002/end-n...redemption

I really don't want to jump down your throat like I'd jump down the author's...and I'm sure you don't agree with -everything- the author has to say...so, maybe, just summarize the parts you do agree with?  I have some really nasty things to say............about the nasty things I just read, and I don't want to hit you with shit you wouldn't put your name to.

[Catholic_Lady]

'm sorry, I don't understand these questions. Can you rephrase?

The additional bit, in parenthesis at the bottom, essentially asked you how you take these questions when they are asked -of you-, and your experience with this conversation up to this point.  You might be feeling a little bit of what we feel in this conversation...you might be having a common experience with us, right now.  So...what is it like?

*More academically, the church refers to natural law....and gods disgust for the act, but is something right simply because it is natural law, and does god's disgust actually form a proper moral justification?

Thank you for asking. I appreciate that you care to know how things are going for me.

My experience has been mostly very positive. I have really enjoyed talking to all of you. I am humbled that so many of you took the time to come here and talk to me when you could have just ignored me. I like talking to people who have such different views because I feel like I can learn a lot from you. If I was talking only to people who felt the same way as me about everything, I wouldn't be learning and growing. That, and it's just boring lol.

It has gotten a little overwhelming at times, especially when I am being misunderstood or when I have to repeat the same thing over several times, but that is expected in online forums where some communication gets lost in the shuffle.

God's disgust for what act?

---

This is kind of a spinoff of the WHY BE GOOD thread.

The question I have for atheists, isn't "why by good." I think it's simplistic and deeply flawed to think that the only reason to "be good" is to avoid Hell. And of course, I believe that anyone can be a good person regardless of beliefs.

The question I have for atheists is how do we know what IS good?

Religious or not, we all somehow know that certain things are intrinsically, universally immoral. Let's use murder as an obvious example. So if murder is wrong, where did this law come from? If this is a universal truth, where did this truth come from and who/what determined it to be what it is?

I don't believe murder is always wrong.  I also disagree when you say that there is an intrinsic morality, you live on a world where there are pacifists who wouldn't hurt a fly, and others who have insane blood lust and kill without remorse.
I guarantee even on this forum there will be a vast spectrum of what people believe is right or wrong so I wonder how you could come to the conclusion that some things are universally known to be right or wrong?

It doesn't make any sense for certain things to ever be moral. Like rape, or slavery, or torturing children. Regardless of how different a culture is, if they think any of those things are moral, I'd have to say they are wrong to think that. This suggests that there are moral laws that are written in stone, verses just being whatever society deems fit at the time.

---

I owe an apology to Rhythm as well as another member who's name I forgot lol.

They have both asked me my thoughts on vicarious redemption last night, and I am just now posting about it. I planned on writing a whole long post about it in my own words once I read up on it some, but at this point I think I'm just going to paste a link on here. I agree with everything it says, and I think the author covers it pretty well and puts it into words much better then I ever could:

http://www.crisismagazine.com/2002/end-n...redemption

I really don't want to jump down your throat like I'd jump down the author's...and I'm sure you don't agree with -everything- the author has to say...so, maybe, just summarize the parts you do agree with?  I have some really nasty things to say............about the nasty things I just read, and I don't want to hit you with shit you wouldn't put your name to.

You don't have to address them to me. You can just make a post about how much you disagree with that article. I'd rather we just go that route, because I must admit its kind of late where I live right now and I don't feel like reading that whole long thing again and summarizing it lol.

[Randy Carson]

Abstinence doesn't work. It's a fact.

Well, I don't know how things are with your spouse, but every time I didn't have sex with my wife, she didn't get pregnant.

Abstinence worked perfectly every time!