Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: December 10, 2022, 2:28 am

Thread Rating:
  • 3 Vote(s) - 4.67 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
What The Bible Really Teaches About Hell
#21
RE: What The Bible Really Teaches About Hell
(December 1, 2008 at 4:51 pm)Daystar Wrote:
(December 1, 2008 at 3:50 pm)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: [quote='Daystar' pid='4718' dateline='1228143743']I haven't missed anything ... as such I cannot be a sinner.

You could have missed the mark . . . Speeding tickets, parking violations, late fees?

Sigh! I haven't missed anything religious ... as such I cannot be a sinner!

Kyu
Reply
#22
RE: What The Bible Really Teaches About Hell
There is a difference between crimes and "wrong doings", immoral actions. And sins. Sins are a religious thing. There are things considered a "sin" that aren't necessarily wrong at all. Or anything to do with morality.
Its apparently a sin to not believe in the God of the bible? Or the "worship other gods". Right? Correct me if I'm wrong.
But this is not immoral. Not a wrong doing. Not a crime. Its just a "sin". There's nothing wrong with not believing in a God that you do not believe in. That there is no evidence of whatsoever. To demand "belief" shows what kind of an immature sick God, "God" actually is if he really considers THAT important.
Reply
#23
RE: What The Bible Really Teaches About Hell
(December 2, 2008 at 9:23 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Its apparently a sin to not believe in the God of the bible? Or the "worship other gods". Right? Correct me if I'm wrong.

That's true but not quite the point I am trying to get across to our friend Daystar ... I still, given that sins are by definition religious offences, maintain that it is impossible for an atheist to sin.

Kyu
Reply
#24
RE: What The Bible Really Teaches About Hell
(December 2, 2008 at 7:05 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote:
(December 1, 2008 at 4:51 pm)Daystar Wrote:
(December 1, 2008 at 3:50 pm)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: [quote='Daystar' pid='4718' dateline='1228143743']I haven't missed anything ... as such I cannot be a sinner.

You could have missed the mark . . . Speeding tickets, parking violations, late fees?

Sigh! I haven't missed anything religious ... as such I cannot be a sinner!

Kyu

I wasn't talking about religion. Fuck religion.
(December 2, 2008 at 11:08 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote:
(December 2, 2008 at 9:23 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Its apparently a sin to not believe in the God of the bible? Or the "worship other gods". Right? Correct me if I'm wrong.

That's true but not quite the point I am trying to get across to our friend Daystar ... I still, given that sins are by definition religious offences, maintain that it is impossible for an atheist to sin.

Kyu

I wasn't talking about religious offenses. I was trying to show you the practical meaning of the word sin so you could drop the religious bullshit.

Sin means to simply miss the mark set by anyone. Your boss, your son, secular law, you yourself.

You ... uh ... you fail on any diet ever?

If I say right here and now that I want you to respond to this within the hour and you agree to that but you don't respond within the hour you have sinned against me. It isn't a boogey man word. It isn't religious bullshit dropped from the English language like a hot potato - necessarily.

[ahem]

I would point out that if you were not here to agree to respond within the hour then it would not be a sin.

The problem you have is that you don't believe in God so you don't acknowledge the mark he has set directly, but nonetheless you sin.

You are a sinner. No matter how you look at it. It is interesting that most Atheists embrace that if not literally then metaphorically. They, uh, metaphorically thrust themselves in its general direction mockingly.

A somewhat distasteful but nevertheless amusing demonstration.
(December 2, 2008 at 9:23 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: There is a difference between crimes and "wrong doings", immoral actions. And sins. Sins are a religious thing. There are things considered a "sin" that aren't necessarily wrong at all. Or anything to do with morality.

The common definition of sin is - the twenty first letter in the Hebrew alphabet, which is sort of interesting in an ironic? way; an offense against God, religion or morals; and an offense against any law, code etc.

So once again, the common use of a 'religious' word, though somewhat distorted into being thought of as exclusively 'religious' by both Xian and not then surprisingly, Atheists, are in fact the same as the Bible's meaning.

In other words, because I think I screwed that up, sin isn't just religious bullshit anywhere outside of the minds of those who are religious. Xian and Atheist!

Cool

(December 2, 2008 at 9:23 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Its apparently a sin to not believe in the God of the bible? Or the "worship other gods". Right? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Uh . . . well, what you have to understand is that the sin that we all inherit is about Adam. Adam was put in charge of earth, it was his responsibility, sort of like the owner of a property may hire a landlord. He messed it up by doing the one thing he shouldn't have (sinned, missed the mark, decided to judge for himself what was right or wrong) and so all of mankind after him were born into or sort of lived in the rundown place of the landlord.

The Atheist and sometimes Xian belief that God is this arrogant tyrant is sort of like the rebellious teenage son of the landlord who has to live in the mess his father created and blames the owner rather than the landlord because he don't see the whole picture.

So having said that, to answer your question - maybe. If you have had the opportunity to look into what is going on with the landlord and owner of the property and yet you chose not to (Belief in God) or you have looked into it and have sided with the landlord instead of the owner, when it comes time to clean house you can hardly blame the owner if you find yourself on your ass in the street.

Why? Because if the owner doesn't put you out you would make the same mistake and screw it up again.

(December 2, 2008 at 9:23 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: But this is not immoral. Not a wrong doing. Not a crime. Its just a "sin". There's nothing wrong with not believing in a God that you do not believe in. That there is no evidence of whatsoever. To demand "belief" shows what kind of an immature sick God, "God" actually is if he really considers THAT important.

It isn't about what you think is right or wrong or how you interpret the evidence - even if you interpret it by saying it isn't there or valid according to the way you are accustomed to looking at evidence. It isn't even about a God who demands belief. Many who don't or haven't had the opportunity to form an opinion or belief will be resurrected.

The point is God created man to live forever and man will live forever. You in or are you out? If you make your decision now - even if it is based upon your own stubborn principles then you are out. No problem.

That is all it is about. Not about being 'good' and being 'bad' and which line you should stand in on recess. King David was beloved of God and he killed a man so he could have it off with his wife. Was that good? Or a product of sin?

mark 10:18 - Jesus said to him: "Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God."
Reply
#25
RE: What The Bible Really Teaches About Hell
(December 2, 2008 at 11:33 am)Daystar Wrote:
(December 2, 2008 at 7:05 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Sigh! I haven't missed anything religious ... as such I cannot be a sinner!

I wasn't talking about religion. Fuck religion.

Whilst atheism is not a religion, it is inherently a religion oriented POV, you're in a atheism community, a forum specifically oriented towards (and called) "Religion" and you weren't talking about religion? I see.

(December 2, 2008 at 11:33 am)Daystar Wrote:
(December 2, 2008 at 7:05 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: That's true but not quite the point I am trying to get across to our friend Daystar ... I still, given that sins are by definition religious offences, maintain that it is impossible for an atheist to sin.

I wasn't talking about religious offenses. I was trying to show you the practical meaning of the word sin so you could drop the religious bullshit.

Sin means to simply miss the mark set by anyone. Your boss, your son, secular law, you yourself.

No, whilst I accept there is a wider definition of "sin" its primary definition (& common usage) is religious.

Quote:From Miriam-Webster:
1 a: an offense against religious or moral law b: an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible <it's a sin to waste food> c: an often serious shortcoming : fault
2 a: transgression of the law of God b: a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God

Indeed outside of the religious meaning the word "sin" seems to be largely used in a reverse fashion as in, "so good it's a sin" so, as far as I'm concerned, the rest of the weak remarks you make in your post are largely irrelevant.

(December 2, 2008 at 11:33 am)Daystar Wrote: The problem you have is that you don't believe in God so you don't acknowledge the mark he has set directly, but nonetheless you sin.

Talk about a loaded remark ... you sure you're not talking from a religious POV? I don't acknowledge YOUR god (or anyone else's AT ALL) so no I do not sin.

(December 2, 2008 at 11:33 am)Daystar Wrote: You are a sinner. No matter how you look at it. It is interesting that most Atheists embrace that if not literally then metaphorically. They, uh, metaphorically thrust themselves in its general direction mockingly.

I believe your argument is inherently flawed so no, I don't sin Smile

(December 2, 2008 at 11:33 am)Daystar Wrote: A somewhat distasteful but nevertheless amusing demonstration.

Or maybe just a stupid one?

Kyu
Reply
#26
RE: What The Bible Really Teaches About Hell
(December 2, 2008 at 11:33 am)Daystar Wrote: The common definition of sin is - the twenty first letter in the Hebrew alphabet, which is sort of interesting in an ironic? way; an offense against God, religion or morals; and an offense against any law, code etc.

So once again, the common use of a 'religious' word, though somewhat distorted into being thought of as exclusively 'religious' by both Xian and not then surprisingly, Atheists, are in fact the same as the Bible's meaning.

In other words, because I think I screwed that up, sin isn't just religious bullshit anywhere outside of the minds of those who are religious. Xian and Atheist!

Cool
If you're not religious. You just believe in God and the bible. Then why bother with the word sin? Its SO OFTEN used religiously. And labeled to mean the religious sins in the bible. Why bother with it if you don't mean it religiously? It can create a lot of misunderstandings in that case. Why bother? Why use the word sin? If you don't actually believe in the "sins" of the bible. How most people understand them. Why call them sins at all? Why not refer to them as immoral, bad or wrong actions?
If by "sin" you just mean "immoral actions" then atheists do sin. But if by sin you mean THAT. Then why call it sin? That's not what most people generally think as sin Sins are normally thought of as a religious thing. It can cause misunderstandings. Its a bad word to use. It has a bad reputation.

Quote:Uh . . . well, what you have to understand is that the sin that we all inherit is about Adam. Adam was put in charge of earth, it was his responsibility, sort of like the owner of a property may hire a landlord. He messed it up by doing the one thing he shouldn't have (sinned, missed the mark, decided to judge for himself what was right or wrong) and so all of mankind after him were born into or sort of lived in the rundown place of the landlord.

The Atheist and sometimes Xian belief that God is this arrogant tyrant is sort of like the rebellious teenage son of the landlord who has to live in the mess his father created and blames the owner rather than the landlord because he don't see the whole picture.

So having said that, to answer your question - maybe. If you have had the opportunity to look into what is going on with the landlord and owner of the property and yet you chose not to (Belief in God) or you have looked into it and have sided with the landlord instead of the owner, when it comes time to clean house you can hardly blame the owner if you find yourself on your ass in the street.

Why? Because if the owner doesn't put you out you would make the same mistake and screw it up again.
Well, not only is there no evidence of God's existence. And not only is the chance that he exists pretty much the same as the FSM...not only that...
You say that some atheists think of God as a tyrant. But guess what? You just described as one.
So ok Adam and Eve are given what they want. The break a rule and get punished right?
So God lets them do what they want...but they are still PRISONERS. If God doesn't like what they do, they get punished. Right?
Sounds like sick twisted moral policing to me. Whats the point of putting people in a paradise if as soon as they do something apparently wrong to God he punishes them for it.
How can they ever learn under such ridiculous conditions and restrictions?
And how does it hurt GOD anyway? They can't exactly kick God in the balls. How can they hurt God? Is he so stuck up that if he doesn't like something they are doing he punishes them? Because it hurts his feelings that he is incapable of both making more perfect beings AND punishing them properly? Or actually leaving them alone? Actually letting them learn and progress rather than intervening as soon as they eat from the fruit of a tree or whatever.
I have no idea what you believe. But if you believe in creation, that the first man on earth was called Adam. Then you believe in a total BULLSHIT story.
Finally you come out with your beliefs after repeatedly announcing that you are here to teach about the bible. And not to teach or preach the bible or God itself. Finally! Well its the first time I've noticed anyway. All I've got is you're not here to talk about your beliefs. Just to teac the bible.
Now you've mentioned Adam!
Ruddy hell! So you're either not here to teach "about" the bible you actually are willing to talk about your beliefs. Or you've accidentally made a bit of a cock-up (this means mistake in Britain in case you don't know).

Quote:It isn't about what you think is right or wrong or how you interpret the evidence - even if you interpret it by saying it isn't there or valid according to the way you are accustomed to looking at evidence. It isn't even about a God who demands belief. Many who don't or haven't had the opportunity to form an opinion or belief will be resurrected.

The point is God created man to live forever and man will live forever. You in or are you out? If you make your decision now - even if it is based upon your own stubborn principles then you are out. No problem.
Once again. NOW you tell me. Now you finally talk about it. Well good.
Ok, so you say the question is, am I in or am I out? Well why on earth would I be in? Why would I be in just one random belief that there is no support of over any other of the very very many conceivable things to commit to? And even if there was only one CONCEIVABLE "God". And it would be yours. Why would I pick him? There's no GOOD reason to believe in him. There is neither any reason to believe he EXISTS. Or that believing in him will effect me postiively if I DID believe it. AND belief is NOT a matter of policy. So I can't choose what I believe anyway. If I for some deluded reason wanted to believe in God. And thought it was right, but still didn't. Thinking "I believe, I believe I believe" over and over again. Will NOT make me believe. I need to be convinced. I need a compelling answer. I am not convinced. There isn't any compelling answer that I know of.
Belief is not a matter of policy. Which is one of the reasons Pascal's Wager falls completely on its face right away anyway. And Pascals Wager is of course just based on fear and wishful thinking. NOT very profound.
I'm out.

Quote:mark 10:18 - Jesus said to him: "Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God."
Says who? Jesus? So what? Jesus wants to believe in a delusion then fine. And I'm not sure Jesus even existed anyway. And he's certainly not going to "come back". The second coming is bullshit.
When pigs fly, frogs sing christmas songs in japanese and dolphins take over the world. Then maybe such a thing is more possible. But even then there still would be no reason whatsoever to believe that that thing in particular would happen. That because really weird illogical stuff happens this means that the very particular illogical miracle of Jesus returning will happen.
It would actually have to happen. But until then, everything points to that it won't. That the supernatural, God and miracles are all bullshit. Faith is bullshit. Superstition is bullshit. Pseudoscience is bullshit.
In the battle of what makes logical sense between evidence vs faith. Evidence wins every time. By definition in fact.
Reply
#27
RE: What The Bible Really Teaches About Hell
Daystar, you explained 'sin' very well (love the Owner, Landlord analogy). I can see why atheists don't like the word, that is clear. I for one am a 'bad' sinner or rather I've done things I know are wrong (even from a non religious point of view). I try to not 'sin' but know I miss the mark every day and in many ways, but I don't let it 'beat me'. I just try harder not to for example lose my temper or say a sarcastic comment, stuff like that. I must say, a big sin I commit every day is that I 'live' with my partner. We are not married, but my belief in God, Christ etc is not strong enough to motivate me to change that (at the minute). I know you guys will be laughing at this. Blush My partner is an atheist and doesn't believe in the religious connotations of marriage, but says he will marry me one day. I want to get married but I don't want to force him because of my beliefs. Anyway, EvidenceVsFaith, you make some interesting points which I will await Daystar's response to. I'm sure if God really does exist, He isn't 'hurt' by the fact you don't believe in Him, maybe saddened but He can see why that is (if He is as loving etc as is claimed).
"The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility"

Albert Einstein
Reply
#28
RE: What The Bible Really Teaches About Hell
(December 3, 2008 at 8:00 am)CoxRox Wrote: I can see why atheists don't like the word

No, not dislike the word, that it has no relevance to an atheist in any religious sense and even if you look at it in a wider sense it's almost always associated with something nice ("something so good it's a sin"). I can honestly say I have NEVER heard anyone use the word outside those contexts.

Kyu
Reply
#29
RE: What The Bible Really Teaches About Hell
I don't dislike the word sin. I just think its not needed if its not used for religious reasons. And can cause misunderstandings.
If its used for religious reasons then I don't believe such a thing exists. I don't believe 'sinning exists'. Only acts of immorality. Only doing bad things.
And once again if thats all you mean by sin then I don't think such a word is needed. It can cause misunderstanding because its so often used in a religious way.
If you believe in God, and the bible, but you do NOT believe you are religious. Why use the word sin? What's good about using such a word? All it does is cause misunderstanding.
Do you want to USE the word simply to mean "immoral action or wrong doing", JUST because it says it in the bible? For completely non-religious reasons but used anyway just because it says it in the bible?
Or do you think that there are some sins, some offenses against God, that you do realize aren't actually immoral actions or wrong doings? So that's why you call them sins?
Why use the word if you're not religious? It only causes misunderstanding. Why use such a word rather than simply saying its a wrong action? Or unethical? Or Immoral?
Reply
#30
RE: What The Bible Really Teaches About Hell
(December 2, 2008 at 5:15 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: If you're not religious. You just believe in God and the bible. Then why bother with the word sin? Its SO OFTEN used religiously. And labeled to mean the religious sins in the bible. Why bother with it if you don't mean it religiously? It can create a lot of misunderstandings in that case. Why bother? Why use the word sin? If you don't actually believe in the "sins" of the bible. How most people understand them. Why call them sins at all? Why not refer to them as immoral, bad or wrong actions?

By definition I am religious, I personally think that everybody has a religious nature. A firm adherence to a system of belief. But as far as the use of words like sin, soul, hell etc. I think that it is important to be aware of the religious use as well as the scriptural use if there is a difference. I don't know why you would say that I don't actually believe in the "sins" of the Bible. Why wouldn't I? Most people think of sin in a limited sense. Limited by a perception of being a condemnation from religion when in fact there is a more practical meaning. The Bible is always more practical than religious superstition.

(December 2, 2008 at 5:15 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: If by "sin" you just mean "immoral actions" then atheists do sin. But if by sin you mean THAT. Then why call it sin? That's not what most people generally think as sin Sins are normally thought of as a religious thing. It can cause misunderstandings. Its a bad word to use. It has a bad reputation.

Well, immoral action is defined by the society and time in which a person lives. So that is a mark that is set, when that mark is missed then it is a sin. I use the word correctly and am not limited by it, and for me this has two advantages. 1. It makes the obvious distinction between the religious conotation and the Biblical meaning so that the two are not confused. and 2. It educates on that distinction so as not to encourage the ignoring of that distinction. I don't believe in the concept that words are bad. Words are words.

(December 2, 2008 at 5:15 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: You say that some atheists think of God as a tyrant. But guess what? You just described as one.
So ok Adam and Eve are given what they want. The break a rule and get punished right?
So God lets them do what they want...but they are still PRISONERS. If God doesn't like what they do, they get punished. Right?
Sounds like sick twisted moral policing to me. Whats the point of putting people in a paradise if as soon as they do something apparently wrong to God he punishes them for it.

They only had one regulation to keep, and it wasn't a whisical one on God's part, it was necessary for their survival and the survival of mankind in the future.

(December 2, 2008 at 5:15 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Now you've mentioned Adam!
Ruddy hell! So you're either not here to teach "about" the bible you actually are willing to talk about your beliefs. Or you've accidentally made a bit of a cock-up (this means mistake in Britain in case you don't know).

I have no idea what you are talking about. It makes no sense to me at all, even though I am somewhat familiar with British vernacular. Though, now you have mentioned it I don't understand what it means to say "Bob's your uncle." Actually I do happen to have an uncle whos name, is, in fact, Bob, but I don't see how it would apply.

(December 2, 2008 at 5:15 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Ok, so you say the question is, am I in or am I out? Well why on earth would I be in? Why would I be in just one random belief that there is no support of over any other of the very very many conceivable things to commit to? And even if there was only one CONCEIVABLE "God". And it would be yours. Why would I pick him? There's no GOOD reason to believe in him. There is neither any reason to believe he EXISTS. Or that believing in him will effect me postiively if I DID believe it. AND belief is NOT a matter of policy. So I can't choose what I believe anyway. If I for some deluded reason wanted to believe in God. And thought it was right, but still didn't. Thinking "I believe, I believe I believe" over and over again. Will NOT make me believe. I need to be convinced. I need a compelling answer. I am not convinced. There isn't any compelling answer that I know of.

I see.

(December 2, 2008 at 5:15 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Belief is not a matter of policy. Which is one of the reasons Pascal's Wager falls completely on its face right away anyway. And Pascals Wager is of course just based on fear and wishful thinking. NOT very profound.
I'm out.

Pascal doesn't have anything to do with it. Fair enough. You are out.
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Without citing the bible, what marks the bible as the one book with God's message? Whateverist 143 37551 March 31, 2022 at 7:05 am
Last Post: Gwaithmir
  Did Moses really write the first few books of the bible? T.J. 30 886 November 19, 2021 at 10:39 pm
Last Post: Brian37
  Who goes to hell - as far as those pious Bible Christians are concerned? Dundee 71 4024 June 14, 2020 at 12:41 pm
Last Post: Paleophyte
  What the bible says Hell is like sinnerdaniel94 843 109241 September 11, 2016 at 6:08 pm
Last Post: Arkilogue
  What the Hell,is Hell anyway? Vern Cliff 31 5951 October 15, 2015 at 1:17 pm
Last Post: brewer
  People Don't Go to Hell in the Bible Rhondazvous 53 14076 August 5, 2015 at 3:17 pm
Last Post: orangebox21
  Illinois bible colleges: "We shouldn't have to follow state standards because bible!" Esquilax 34 6494 January 23, 2015 at 12:29 pm
Last Post: Spooky
  Hell Houses (AKA: Hallelujah Houses, Heaven or Hell, Christian Haunted House, etc.) Strider 25 5908 December 3, 2014 at 3:07 pm
Last Post: abaris
  Do Christians really believe most of us are going to hell? GrandizerII 126 15398 July 15, 2014 at 11:52 am
Last Post: Wyrd of Gawd
  Hell does NOT exist in the bible? 1tasolo 24 7236 February 3, 2014 at 9:50 pm
Last Post: Angrboda



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)