The concept of "selling out" in music - Let's discuss it

[Jackalope]

I don't perceive the eponymous album as selling out, because it is so well written that I can respect it for what it is. Whether trve thr4xorz like it or not, NEM is a damn fine ballad.

Trüe Thr4xörz don't like ballads, yo.

Yep, in terms of writing, production, and performance, it's probably their best album. I don't think it's a sellout either, but I will admit to having "Sandman" on my list of songs that are so overplayed that I care not if I ever hear them again.

Had it been the kind of recording that the band makes during the hangover after a seventeen month cocaine binge and crassly expects the fanbase to slurp up anyways, well then we're into sellout territory.

[Alex K]

One of the most hilarious failed sellout attempts in metal was Celtic Frosts "Cold Lake". One of the most influential dark/death metal bands of the 80s suddenly doing 80s glam rock. Everyone was in shock. Right after that, they got their shit together again and made a couple of awesome records. It is only spoken of in hushed tones nowadays.

[Jackalope]

One of the most hilarious failed sellout attempts in metal was Celtic Frosts "Cold Lake". One of the most influential dark/death metal bands of the 80s suddenly doing 80s glam rock. Everyone was in shock. Right after that, they got their shit together again and made a couple of awesome records. It is only spoken of in hushed tones nowadays.

Def Leppard. "High 'n' Dry" was the shit. "Pyromania" was technically brilliant. Then they go off on a pop rock tangent and never come back? (Though honestly, I can't be forced to listen to any of their later shit.) Perhaps not as evident as your example, but it lacks the whole "got their shit together and made awesome records" element.

[Pyrrho]

But Pyrrho, you make it sound as if anyone who sells art has no standards - and that is clearly not true. There is such a thing as abandoning artistic integrity in order to cater to "the masses", no?

You should reread my post.  I did not say that anyone who sells art has no standards.  But, whenever someone is selling art, the selling is about money.  That is what selling is.  It is the exchange of something for money.

Anyone who believes that something with a price tag on it has nothing to do with money is delusional.  Of course, it need not be just about money, but it is necessarily at least partly about money.

Many people seem to forget that when they are thinking about their favorite bands.


Edited to add:

It might be worth mentioning that this does not mean that the art is therefore inferior.  To use an example that you will appreciate, consider Johann Sebastian Bach's Mass in B minor.  It does not matter that he wrote it for his church.  It is a great work of art, regardless of whatever motivated Bach to write it.  It makes no difference how much he was paid for it, or if he simply did it out of religious devotion; it is a great work of art regardless of any such considerations.  It would not even matter if he had been a total sellout, writing it for his boss or the public or whoever, even if he hated it himself (which I doubt, but it makes no difference for how great the piece is).

[IATIA]

If I do not like the music then I do not buy it.  So, who are they "selling out" to?  It is their prerogative to handle their business practices any way they see fit.  Supply and demand will do the rest.  No matter what, somebody is going to put out some music that somebody does not like.  Everyone's tastes change.  For the older crowd, ever listen to some of that music from the "good 'ol days" and go "YECH, I used to listen to that crap!".

[Dystopia]

Since you're sporting a Metallica avatar, let's talk about them.  

Was Metallica a sellout for their eponymous fifth album?  A lot of fans seem to think so, and it seems apparent that there's a couple of tracks on that album ("Enter Sandman" and "Nothing Else Matters") that are intended for broad appeal and FM airplay, the album certainly did enjoy broader appeal, and a one or more other tracks got airplay as a result.   Is the rest of the album that big of a departure from "...and Justice For All"?  I don't think so.

It's pretty apparent that from covers that they've recorded that they're interested in playing a broad range of music.  I mean it's no surprise when they cover Diamond Head, Misfits, Mercyful Fate, and Motorhead - but covering Bob Seger, Lynryd Skynyrd, Queen, and Blue Oyster Cult is indicative of a broader musical range.

That to me is reinforced by Load / Reload, two albums that were not particularly popular with long-time fans, and were not nearly as commericially successful.  If they were sellouts, they did not sell well.  I don't think anyone could call "St. Anger" a sellout and keep a straight face.  You could say it sucked, and I would disagree, but that's a subjective judgment.

In short, a band's musical interest may change (and may even be wholly motivated by money - I'm looking at you, Kiss), but the fanboy's doesn't seem to.

The black album is a heavy metal album, it's certainly not a sellout - I wouldn't compare it with "And Justice For All" - I'm not a musicologist but the latter sounds more like progressive metal mixed with trash metal while the black album sounds just like a heavy metal album with some trash influences and a healthy wish to reach the mainstream radio and catch the attention of younger/new audiences. I think Enter Sandman is cool just because it's a good song to dance and headbang (if you have long hair) and that's why I like it, but having overplayed it myself too it's not of those songs I would take to an island - Curiously "One", the song that got me into Metallica, is still one of my favourites but I never say it to any metal fan because they think I only like it because it's popular.

I think the self-titled fifth album was good because it sold a lot and reached new audiences - Curiously this lead to a lot more sales of previous albums so some people basically got into metal by listening to that album and then buying earlier stuff (and maybe listening to other artists afterwards). I also believe The Unforgiven is a damn beautiful song and it's one of my favourites - Nothing Else Matters is a classic ballad as well. My favourite album remains Ride The Lightning but I think Kill 'Em All is extremely underrated - My favourite Metallica song is probably The Four Horsemen.

I think it is no surprise they made some covers and tried new sounds - James Hetfield sometimes worn other bands' T-shirt (I remember seeing him on a live concert with a Misfits t-shirt) - And it's not bad - But I think a band can be great without changing as well, as long as you can be creative and write good songs. Iron Maiden is a must listen for me as well and what I like about them is that they produce amazing albums after all these years- They could play a concert with material from the last 10-12 years with no problem, and few people would be unhappy - They don't change their british heavy metal style a lot, but fans like it.

I do like the newest albums - some songs are pretty good - I even liked (and bought) Death Magnetic because it fuses heavy metal with mainstream appeal (The Day That Never Comes was on MTV for some weeks) - But they're just not the best, not for me because I started listening to them as a metal band. I didn't grow up in the 80's so it's not like Metallica is my childhood's band, I was just a kid from the 2000's and I found them on youtube - And it was cool to be rebellious while everyone else listened to electro and pop.

I think metal fans, specifically big bands' fans, can be pretty annoying, if not outrageous, sometimes I feel like punching them in the face. They need to grow up. If you like Metallica's old work you can listen to it and albums are available in most music shops with a metal section. When I don't like an album I simply don't buy it - There's two Maiden albums I particularly don't like so I just skip them everytime, but I'm not going to call them sellouts.

I think in genres like punk, metal, blues and so on - Linked with specific subcultures with rules and ideologies - Have a tendency to infuriate fans more often because it's all part of their identity.

Thr4xörz

What is this?

[Alex K]

An ironic leet speak+metal döt infused rendition of "thrashers"

[KUSA]

Ahh Metallica. I loved them though out the years regardless if they changed or not. What other band gives you lyrics like this? It's pure poetry.

I've got something to say, I killed your baby today and it
Doesn't matter much to me, as long as it's dead.
I've got something to say, I raped your mother today and it
Doesn't matter much to me, as long as she's spread.

[Alex K]

I dunno, you might try Cannibal Corpse?

[Dystopia]

What about this?

I am the Antichrist
It's what I was meant to be
Your God left me behind
And set my soul to be free

Watching disciples
Of the satanic rule
Pentagram of blood
Holds the jackal's truth
Searching for the answer
Christ hasn't come
Awaiting the final moment
The birth of Satan's son