Abortion -cpr on the fetus?

[Ravenshire]

@snakoil. You call it a false analogy. Why? Back up your assertion

Because you're comparing a living breathing human being that has already survived years without medical intervention to something that cannot survive without medical intervention.

Now, why don't you address some of those other arguments you demanded (after they were presented) then ignored.

[rexbeccarox]

@rex how about you address my argument?

Ok. Sure. I think it's bullshit and I think you haven't thought it through. Did you watch the video I posted? People have abortions for many different reasons. I had to have one once because the fetus died in my womb, and I didn't naturally flush it out. I didn't want it anyway, so I probably would have had an abortion anyway. At the time, I made about $26,000 a year in Southern California where I could barely afford to feed myself most of the time. If I had an abortion and they revived the fetus, what would they have done with it? What would its or my options have been?

[Cato]

@Cato. You're graph showed a non zero denominator in survival at <20 weeks, therefor there is a possibly of survival. No one denies the rate of survival increases with gestation and size, that's not the point. The point is that there is a non-zero chance of survival (the medical definition of futility is that there is no reasonable of survival ) patient with cardiogenic shock and multi system organ failure have a very low chance of survival and we do talk with the patient about withdrawal of care, but we do not simply turn it off or not bother to try because they are likely to die

I'm simply clarifying terms. Is this enough to establish that you think abortion is wrong in all cases as long as there is some non-zero chance of survival with no other consideration?

[answer-is-42]

@Dystopia. Who are you talking to? Your message has nothing to do with my thread.

[answer-is-42]

@Cato. I never said abortion is right or wrong in this thread. What I DID say was that is t immoral to simply terminate a fetus rahter then attempting to deliver and support it out of the womb if the mother no longer wishes to be pregnant. That is as far as the bodily autonomy arguement for abortion can go

[bennyboy]

You sir or madam do not know what you are talking about. Between the 2 of us, one of us has an MD. It's not you.  Additionally I agree that development accelerates at 28 weeks, but that does NOT mean that it hasn't already stated. Premature infants are born at < 28 weeks and survive. Some are developmentally delayed, but that is irrelevant to the moral discussion. You are now going into the territory of determining a worthwhile life and that is a different slippery slope. My question was primarily of survival.  By the way, I have personally cared for an infant born at 24 weeks due to medical complication /emergency (ecclampsia) she had a Rough initial road but is a very happy 9 year old now.
Again, stick to what you know (it ain't biology) and talk about the morality of allowing a living fetus to die outside the body of another without medical support that isnknown and available. You still haven't given a good Moral arguement for this.

(emphasis is mine)

You clearly point out that you're opinion is superior because of your alleged education. Time to put up or shut the fuck up.

I don't know answer's status as a medical professional. However, let me say two things: 1) nothing has been produced yet that can't be googled in about 10 seconds, so that degree isn't really adding anything useful to the discussion; 2) unless that medical knowledge provides some additional insight onto the morality of abortion, then it's irrelevant, even if answer works in the Mayo clinic, which he/she clearly doesn't.


@answer-is-42
I don't think viability is a good moral argument anyway. The philosophical issue is whether the loss of future potential should be equated to the actual loss of a life right now. I don't think so-- the future is undefined, and there is no good reason to think that another person will contribute anything more than methane to the already-crowded culture. Every abortion is a slightly greener Earth, slightly cheaper food, slightly less crowded classrooms, slightly reduced crime rate (because look who usually has abortions), slightly fewer people clogging the highways.

Given overcrowding, I think it's safe to say that MORE crowding is an immoral act-- which we tolerate because of, you know, the human right to reproduce and stuff. But crying over a bundle of cells when real kids in the US are poorly undereducated and suffering malnutrition seems kind of pointless.

[bennyboy]

*sigh*

Forum double-posted for some reason.

[answer-is-42]

@rex. I don't care what your options would have been. If you had a 3 year old and could not afford them could you kill them? If you don't want the child, fine make it a ward of the state. The moral argument (this is a philosophy thread ) in play here is bodily autonomy. Once the fetus is out of you that no longer is in play

[Ravenshire]

Also who cares what the mother wants to deal with. If a mother doesn't want to deal with her 3 year old can she kill them?  what the mother wants is irrelevant  the only time it has any relevance is if you abide by the bodily autonomy arguement and it is inside her  once it's she doesn't get that right to decide any more then you or I do. The parents are medical surrogates as long as they are working in the child's best interests. If a parent attempts to kill a 3 year old, they dont get to decide if we ca take them off the vent.  Same here, if a mother decides she does not want her child to live she doesn't get to decide if it gets medical care

So, typical right to birther. The mothers rights do not matter and nothing after the birth matters. Get bent you misogynistic ass-hat.

Until you can carry a child, shut the fuck up.

Doctor my ass.

[rexbeccarox]

@rex. I don't care what your options would have been. If you had a 3 year old and could not afford them could you kill them?  If you don't want the child, fine make it a ward of the state. The moral argument (this is a philosophy thread ) in play here is bodily autonomy. Once the fetus is out of you that no longer is in play

(bold mine)

Wow. Well, I do care what happens with my own body and things it produces. If you are a doctor, please tell me where you live so I never stumble into your office. That's fucking scary.