The Batlord Cometh

[Alex K]

Then you should get out more.

But even if I granted you that one, is happiness really the final arbiter? To borrow a famous quote, a drunkard is happy, but does that make it desirable to be continuously intoxicated?

You're confusing temporary satisfaction with long-term happiness. Getting drunk might be satisfying, but it won't result in any long-term happiness. A personal philosophy which satisfies whatever psychological prerequisites you have that would contribute to a fulfilling life -- which aren't always rational -- however, may.

And why shouldn't happiness be the ultimate goal in life? Why live if you're not going to pursue happiness?

I think that your view, if you are really serious about it, inevitably leads to absolute nihilism, because if one does not value truth, I do think one cannot value anything. As an example, imagine you are convinced that you will meet your loved ones again after death. You may spend less time with them now, might even treat them worse because you know that you have eternity to make up for it. Would you not consider this tragic? Not caring would mean not caring about your relationship with your loved ones.

What experience with theists and their relationships with their loved ones leads you to believe that their religion makes them value their human relationships any less? If they did, then they probably wouldn't care about meeting them in the hereafter. Saying that is like theists claiming that you can't have morality without religion: both are intellectually lazy assertions which only reflect the bias of the person claiming it.

If you believe that, then shouldn't you avoid relationships with theists, since they're not going to value you?

Oh, you completely misunderstood me. I'm not saying that believers in an afterlife care less about their loved ones. I'm talking about those who do not care about the truth concerning an afterlife.

[Pyrrho]

...
If you believe that, then shouldn't you avoid relationships with theists, since they're not going to value you?

I have found that it is best to avoid relationships with people who have idiotic beliefs whenever reasonably possible. So I do avoid relationships with theists, though not completely and absolutely, as that is not practically possible.

Typically, theists do not value atheists very much. Atheists are one of the most hated groups in America. (Source 1 and source 2.) Who needs "friends" who are prejudiced against one?

[robvalue]

I'll take Batlord over bat shit crazy

Welcome aboard!

[The Batlord]

Oh, you completely misunderstood me. I'm not saying that believers in an afterlife care less about their loved ones. I'm talking about those who do not care about the truth concerning an afterlife.

Then who exactly are we talking about? Hypothetical theists? Theists who believe out of fear rather than "true faith"? I didn't mean to strawman but I wasn't clear on your point. It's been awhile since I was really into debating the subject, so I'm probably out of practice with recognizing the core of an argument.

And are you disagreeing with my point about being okay with the idea of a theist who genuinely believes -- not just a secular, casual theist who doesn't really care, but still affiliates themselves with *insert religious affiliation* just because they were raised that way and don't give the idea too much thought -- being comforted by their religion? I'd still think their beliefs were as ridiculous as Tom Cruise believing in Xenu, but I'm just saying that I don't care to take away something that gets them through their lives with a minimum of misery.

I have found that it is best to avoid relationships with people who have idiotic beliefs whenever reasonably possible.  So I do avoid relationships with theists, though not completely and absolutely, as that is not practically possible.

Typically, theists do not value atheists very much.  Atheists are one of the most hated groups in America.  (Source 1 and source 2.)  Who needs "friends" who are prejudiced against one?

I definitely don't advertise my atheism in general, since it's produced plenty of annoying conversations with theists, but for the most part it doesn't go beyond a few awkward mini debates. If asked I'll tell the truth, but until then I guess I keep it on the down low for the sake of peace. But for the most part I still value those relationships, just as I value my relationships with people who I disagree with on politics.

I think it's short-sighted to avoid theist relationships TBH. Theism doesn't necessarily make somebody a bad friend, anymore than atheism necessarily makes someone a good friend. I'd take an anti-abortionist who was a loyal friend over an atheist who was a dick any day of the week.

[Alex K]

@Batlord

I thought I was talking about your own attitude (if I understood it correctly) that being right or wrong about matters of the afterlife is of no great importance, and why I think it is problematic.

[ignoramus]

Welcome matey.