Evidence God Exists: Part II

[Minimalist]

There are people who kill and harm other people

Yes....many of them in the name or your god or some other. Why is that?


I can't believe you are trying to keep this thread going. Next you'll perform CPR on a mummy.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

There are people who kill and harm other people

Yes....many of them in the name or your god or some other. Why is that?

The ability to rationalise the most appalling acts is one of humanity's most profoundly useful inventions.
Many use piety. Many more use the common good. A relatively small number have the intestinal fortitude no to make no excuses, and admit it's a matter of self interest.

[Minimalist]

“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.”

Steven Weinberg

[Thor]

Shouldn't you also mention man's malevolent nature? There are people who kill and harm other people. If you mention all these harmful forces in your laundry list, then how about man? Shouldn't man's deadly nature also be included to demonstrate an inconsistency with the existence of a loving deity?

Isn't it people like you who like to tell us that "God" gave us "free will"? If that's true, then anything done by man doesn't count because we have "free will". This lets you off the hook when someone tries to use horrible things done by people as evidence against a god. If I were to say "Your god stood by and did nothing while Hitler murdered millions!", you would just say, "God gave man free will!". And anyway, this is NOT comparable to things that your deity would have had to create himself (like killer microbes, poisonous plants, internal parasites, etc...)

What about accidents? People fall and and break their necks, die, etc. Shouldn't you mention accidents as a sign there's no God?

I could. But, again, "accidents" are not specifically created by your deity (unless you want to say that they are, in which case, I'll have a field day!).

While you're at it, you might as well mention mistakes. People make mistakes and lose their jobs, driving privileges, even life.

Are you saying that your deity causes people to make mistakes? If not, then this is a miserable argument.

In fact, by your logic, everything negative and tragic that occurs contradicts a loving deity.

Not at all! I'm only talking about things that were (supposedly) created by your "loving" deity. This deity would have had to create horrible viruses, harmful parasites, poisonous plants, flesh eating bacteria, etc... This is hardly the same thing as acts of man, accidents or mistakes. Talk about reaching for straws...

God could only exist if we lived in a perfect world without harmful creatures or foods, man's evil nature, accidents, mistakes, or tragic events!

I didn't say this at all. And you seem to miss my point. A god may exist. However, the god YOU believe in cannot exist because it is a contradiction. A "loving" deity would not unleash things like malaria, river blindness, elephantisis, smallpox, or bubonic plague on people he "loves".

The point is that God is not going to come down and explain every intricacy of his complex world.

Of course not! Fictional beings can't do anything.

If people tried to figure it themselves, they would get the same result you would get if you tried to figure out the smart phone on your own.

But I can take a smart phone apart and maybe figure out how it works. I can't possibly figure out the reasons behind unreasonable behavior unless the perpetrator of the unreasonable bahavior explains his reasons to me. Not a very good analogy.

[AngelThMan]

...If I were to say "Your god stood by and did nothing while Hitler murdered millions!", you would just say, "God gave man free will!". And anyway, this is NOT comparable to things that your deity would have had to create himself (like killer microbes, poisonous plants, internal parasites, etc...)

Of course it is comparable. Free will or not, God created man, and gave him a capability to become angry, to sin and to even carry out evil acts. So by your standards, this is inconsistent with a loving deity.

What about accidents? People fall and and break their necks, die, etc. Shouldn't you mention accidents as a sign there's no God?

I could. But, again, "accidents" are not specifically created by your deity (unless you want to say that they are, in which case, I'll have a field day!).

The point is that we live in a world where horrible accidents can happen. Man, as well as accidents, can harm us in the same way that poisonous animals and plants can. Why point to deadly parasites and fungus, which are relatively obscure, when you can look at the horrible and nefarious elements that are all around us?

Man and tragedies can inflict much more damage on the world than poisonous snakes ever could. So if God created a world for us to live in where accidents and tragedies can occur, why can't he also create, or allow to evolve, poison berries and killer microbes, especially if, for whatever reason, he needed them as as a tool, whether his own or for the progress of certain species?

What difference does it make whether a person dies from a scorpion bite, or at the hands of a fellow man? The outcome is the same.

If you're saying that a loving deity could not have created a deadly scorpion, then you should also say that he could not have allowed man's dark side to develop. In other words, our world should be perfect and heaven-like, or God is contradicted.

While you're at it, you might as well mention mistakes. People make mistakes and lose their jobs, driving privileges, even life.

Are you saying that your deity causes people to make mistakes?...

No. But we live in a world where mistakes happen, which sometimes can be fatal. Since awful things can happen by means of mistakes, doesn't this negate the existence of a loving deity in the same way that viruses do? After all, God 'created' a world where mistakes can occur, didn't he?

You've said that only certain creations negate the existence of a loving deity, and not necessarily our imperfect, non-heaven-like world. Can you tell me what the cutoff is? What horrible things may and may not have been created in order for God not to be contradicted?

But I can take a smart phone apart and maybe figure out how it works.

Unless you're an engineer, I seriously doubt that. But that's another issue.

I can't possibly figure out the reasons behind unreasonable behavior unless the perpetrator of the unreasonable bahavior explains his reasons to me...

This is true. But now you need to understand that God has no interest in explaining it to you. He'd prefer that you have faith in him despite these things that you don't understand.

[Minimalist]

He'd prefer that you have faith in him despite these things that you don't understand.

Then your god is a shmuck.

[Thor]

[quote='Thor']...If I were to say "Your god stood by and did nothing while Hitler murdered millions!", you would just say, "God gave man free will!". And anyway, this is NOT comparable to things that your deity would have had to create himself (like killer microbes, poisonous plants, internal parasites, etc...)

Of course it is comparable. Free will or not, God created man, and gave him a capability to become angry, to sin and to even carry out evil acts. So by your standards, this is inconsistent with a loving deity.

I am not claiming this. I don't know why you want to insist that I am.

What about accidents? People fall and and break their necks, die, etc. Shouldn't you mention accidents as a sign there's no God?

I could. But, again, "accidents" are not specifically created by your deity (unless you want to say that they are, in which case, I'll have a field day!).

The point is that we live in a world where horrible accidents can happen. Man, as well as accidents, can harm us in the same way that poisonous animals and plants can. Why point to deadly parasites and fungus, which are relatively obscure, when you can look at the horrible and nefarious elements that are all around us?

Because (according to what you believe) deadly parasites and fungus were created by your deity and let loose in the world! Do you believe that accidents are caused by your deity? I'm guessing the answer is no. This is why I don't make any claim with regard to accidents. Why can't you understand this?

Man and tragedies can inflict much more damage on the world than poisonous snakes ever could. So if God created a world for us to live in where accidents and tragedies can occur, why can't he also create, or allow to evolve, poison berries and killer microbes, especially if, for whatever reason, he needed them as as a tool, whether his own or for the progress of certain species?

You don't get it, do you? Accidents are the result of people's free will (at least according to the believers I have argued with). You don't see the difference between a parent allowing a child to learn how to ride a bike (which leads to the child getting hurt when he falls off the bike) and a parent who intentionally places a cobra in their child's bedroom?

What difference does it make whether a person dies from a scorpion bite, or at the hands of a fellow man? The outcome is the same.

Because the scorpion was created by your deity (so you believe) and the murder is the result of free will.

If you're saying that a loving deity could not have created a deadly scorpion, then you should also say that he could not have allowed man's dark side to develop. In other words, our world should be perfect and heaven-like, or God is contradicted.

You just want to keep putting words in my mouth, don't you? I'm saying that a "loving" deity would not create horrors like smallpox, bubonic plague, flesh eating bacteria, intestinal worms, malaria carrying mosquitos, etc. and unleash them upon the people he suposedly "loves". That is all. I make no claim as to the awful acts of people being an indication that "God" doesn't exist.

While you're at it, you might as well mention mistakes. People make mistakes and lose their jobs, driving privileges, even life.

Are you saying that your deity causes people to make mistakes?...

No. But we live in a world where mistakes happen, which sometimes can be fatal. Since awful things can happen by means of mistakes, doesn't this negate the existence of a loving deity in the same way that viruses do? After all, God 'created' a world where mistakes can occur, didn't he?

Mistakes happen because of "free will". I make no claim that mistakes are evidence that "God" doesn't exist.

You've said that only certain creations negate the existence of a loving deity, and not necessarily our imperfect, non-heaven-like world. Can you tell me what the cutoff is? What horrible things may and may not have been created in order for God not to be contradicted?

I thought I was pretty clear on this, but I guess I was mistaken.

I point to naturally occurring things that harm and kill us as contradicting the existence of a "loving" and "just" deity. These particularly include nasty microbes and parasites that the world would be better off without. There is no reason we need to have the smallpox virus, or the polio virus, or the AIDS virus, or the malaria parasite, or disease carrying ticks, etc....

I can't possibly figure out the reasons behind unreasonable behavior unless the perpetrator of the unreasonable bahavior explains his reasons to me...

This is true. But now you need to understand that God has no interest in explaining it to you. He'd prefer that you have faith in him despite these things that you don't understand.

Ah, yes! I must have "faith" in an unseen, unheard, undetectable being who (for some reason) never lets us know he is there.

Imagine that you grow up never seeing or hearing from your father. Your mother tells you about how wonderful your father is and that one day he will show up and shower you with love and presents. Your mom tells you to write letters to your dad and that she will deliver the messages to him. You do this diligently, writing a letter every week. Your mother assures you that your father is getting your letters. But your dad never responds to the letters in any way. You become a teenager and you still have not
heard from or seen your father. You graduate high school and your father has yet to contact you. You graduate college, get a job, get married, have kids and your father remains uncommunicative. You turn 40 and there has been nothing from your father. Ever. Would you still "have faith" in your mother's promises? Or would you face reality and realize that the chances of your father showing up are just about zero?

[Nitsuj]

Aww...that's a sad story, Thor. *sniff*.

[Minimalist]

Free will or not, God created man,

Prove it, Angel.