Greek Tragedy ( Capitalism in crisis....again! )

[reverendjeremiah]

Modern Capitalism (the Americanized version) = Privatise the profits and socialise the losses.

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If Greece were a capitalist nation the debt incurred would have been allocated via market signals, such as supply and demand, productivity, profit and price to industries which could have used the debt to invest in infrastructure that would create more wealth than it took in - That is quite plainly not what happened in Greece.

Right, because cut throat capitalism, the same kind of capitalism that libertarians push, would actually care about the victims? That those who seek profit only for the sake of profit would actually turn the debt around into infrastructure instead of cooking the books, grabbing the cash and running? Greece very much is a capitalist system. In fact they are a mixed economy. What is it about Libertarians that they think that if they loosen the restraints on the market that suddenly everything will become benevolent and self efficient?

[theVOID]

theVoid, we agree on one thing then, the Greek people are not responsible for the country's problems.

Do you then support their opposition to the second round of austerity measures?

The question for the Greeks is "Is it better than defaulting?", if that's the case they might as well go for it, if not then they should default, I don't have much of an opinion on what option is ultimately better but I'm leaning towards Defaulting as being their best option.

Unluckily for them they are very much an import economy, they don't have near the infrastructure to support the lifestyle they want by themselves (hence the debt problem) so they need trade opportunities with other nations. Being unable to produce and export goods enough to sustain their debts and being too far to in debt and too poorly rated to easily acquire any form of credit they are forced with that choice.

Am I ignorant of capitalism? Well I've been a socialist for almost 40 years so I like to think not.

Yet you have failed to bring to attention in this conversation any real reasoning what-so-ever to support the conclusion that it's the fault of capitalism. The situation in Greece is one of an import economy with a large trade deficit, huge debts and a sizeable welfare system that borrowed too much money to support a system that was simply unable to make use of the investments in a way sufficient for them to generate the wealth needed to sustain their lifestyle, it is now dealing with a large, fairly socialist and authoritarian EU to secure bailouts which essentially amounts to the burden being shifted to other member nations in the EU - Everyone else will be made to pay for the bunk Greek system - Compared to the role their involvement with the American banking giants had who triggered the collapse which is genuinely more of the 'straw that broke the camel's back' than anything in this situation, the situation involving the Greek State and the EU is much more significant and clearly not capitalism - Your statements to the contrary are either rather disingenuous or ignorant.

I can see how global capitalism isn't doing much for world peace, the third world or wage slaves around the globe , whilst ensuring an ever-widening gap between the richest and poorest.

That's a separate issue, we're discussing Greek.

Capitalism has everything to do with the EU and Greece, in this instance, since any help that country gets will be based on financial terms that will hurt those already suffering while the richest will continue to escape the worst of the austerity measures.

Define capitalism for me, then explain why you think the EU situation has anything to do with it. Yeah, it's going to suck for Greece, but that's not an argument for it being the fault of capitalism at all, it's just an observation of what choices they face given their situation, none of them are good giving the circumstances surrounding the nature of the Greek economy.

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Right, because cut throat capitalism, the same kind of capitalism that libertarians push, would actually care about the victims? That those who seek profit only for the sake of profit would actually turn the debt around into infrastructure instead of cooking the books, grabbing the cash and running? Greece very much is a capitalist system. In fact they are a mixed economy. What is it about Libertarians that they think that if they loosen the restraints on the market that suddenly everything will become benevolent and self efficient?

We are discussing Greece here, not political or economic ideology. If you think that capitalism was to blame for the Greek situation then give your reasoning, explain why it was a more significant factor than the out of control public debt, rapidly rising costs of welfare systems, ageing population and retirement at 52 on an 80% salary, lack of investment in the productive sector to create wealth and lifestyles that tended to be more demanding of goods and services than they could provide for themselves. Or better yet, explain how you see Capitalism being to blame for a situation where they are not being productive or profitable and didn't sufficiently use capital investment to extent their wealth, the banks created a situation where they are now owed tens of billions of dollars and will likely not recover it all (and have a fairly decent chance of receiving none) given they exist to seek profit.

[reverendjeremiah]

[theVOID]

[bozo]

the Void, you ask me to define capitalism and ask what it has to do with the EU and Greece.
The definition I favour is that capitalism is an economic system based on the idea of competition ( as opposed to the socialist idea of cooperation).
It flows that a competition throws up many more losers than winners. The evidence for this is the ever-increasing wealth divide between the mega-rich and the poorest countries and individuals on our planet. ( Socialism seeks to split the cake more evenly by removing the extremes ).
We live in a time when global capitalism is the dominant economic power ( not socialism ).
Thus the EU operates according to the prevailing orthodoxy. By labelling countries or the EU " left " you appear to be suggesting that socialist principles are at work...they are not, in my view. The medicine prescribed for the Greeks is of the capitalist type...toxic for the poorest.

As an example of capitalism at work, I point you away from Greece and towards Russia.
A recent report from Moscow's Higher School of Economics found that the richest have doubled their wealth in the past 20 years whereas almost 2/3rds are no better of and the poorest are barely 1/2 as wealthy as they were when comunism ended.
The report shows that oligarchs got rich quick by snapping up the country's choicest assets in the immediate post-Soviet period.
( my view, communism went to " gangster capitalism " very quickly indeed ).
The report further shows " two Russias " . The wealthiest 1/5 of the population received a pay cheque equivalent to 198% of its value in 1991, while the poorest 1/5 made only 55% in real terms.
In total, 60% of the population has the same real income or less than the average 20 years ago.

Same old story of capitalism at work!

[downbeatplumb]

Capitalism is only a good system for the 'haves' and actively traps the 'have nots' in poverty.
Thats cool with the haves because they have a pool of people they can exploit. That was until the minimum wage made them pay a reasonable amount and not slave wages.

[BethK]

[reverendjeremiah]

[theVOID]

[reverendjeremiah]