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September 17, 2015 at 7:31 pm (This post was last modified: September 17, 2015 at 7:32 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Sounds like a strange desire to me. I'd rather not field a call from my kids every day from now until eternity to help them decide between periwinkle blue and lavender. Pretty much consider myself an abject failure if those are the kinds of folks I bring up.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
September 17, 2015 at 7:40 pm (This post was last modified: September 17, 2015 at 7:42 pm by MTL.)
(September 17, 2015 at 7:17 pm)Lek Wrote: If 10 people said they saw an angel, why do the circumstances need to be the same and the angels look alike? Your assertion that when supernatural occurrences are seriously investigated thy always fail isn't correct. What is correct is that supernatural occurrences cannot be proven when investigated. Often they are proven to be fraud or imagination, but very often there is nothing to disprove them. That's because science is not equipped to test the supernatural. You are right that saying that believing something like christainity requires faith, but it's not an unfounded belief. Also, if I and many others have a supernatural experience, I'm going to believe it, especially if I don't have a history of seeing pink elephants, because I'm the who had the experience.
Ok Lek,
My own Christian grandfather was an easygoing man, generally,
but he got quite heated whenever he encountered Atheism,
or anything that challenged HIS belief structure.
One of his favourite things to vehemently say was:
" I don't BELIEVE there's a God, I KNOW there's a God!!! "
Now, I've always acknowledged that I cannot presume
to automatically dismiss the experiences that others claim to have had, as untruths,
simply because they cannot be documented, reproduced, or proven for my satisfaction.
But what bugs me is this:
The Bible tells us Ask, Seek, Knock.
And I did.
I am not going to waste time trying to impress Theists with the sincerity of my search.
I KNOW that I searched with every fiber of my being. I KNOW what I went through.
However, no matter how badly I needed to find what I was looking for,
I refused to lie to myself.
Either God would really speak to me,
....or I would hear only silence.
I wanted to find God.
But only if He was truly there to find.
I refused to give myself false comfort
by choosing to see miracles where there weren't any.
False comfort is no comfort at all.
What I found was not only disappointment.... but exactly the opposite of what YOU claim to have experienced.
So,
If the Bible is really the Word of God
And it can be trustedwhen it says"Ask, Seek, Knock" and numerous other promises,
and I know how hard I sought
(even if Theists want to insensitively, arrogantly,
and presumptuously trivialize the earnestness of my search, as they often have)
and I know that I was refusing to kid myself,
then, Lek,
WHY should I believe that my Grandfather actually had a personal experience of God's Love,
...and yet I had THE EXACT OPPOSITE???
Now, by having "the exact opposite"....I do not merely mean that I failed to find anything.
I DID have what you might call a very visceral, very unsettling, very specific supernatural experience.
But it was anything but comforting.
(I've already written about it in other threads, and I don't know if you've already read it or not).
September 17, 2015 at 7:45 pm (This post was last modified: September 17, 2015 at 7:47 pm by MTL.)
(September 17, 2015 at 7:27 pm)Lek Wrote:
(September 17, 2015 at 7:10 pm)MTL Wrote: Not to oversimplify it, but that, right there, is very simply one of the reasons I reject Religion.
Don't you think if God really exists,
and cares about having our obedience and worship,
enough to go to the trouble of leaving a literal, physical, written manual for mankind,
that He would make sure it was IMPOSSIBLE TO MISINTERPRET that book
...nevermind disagreeing over WHICH book was the actually the right one???
No. I think he wants us to study the scriptures regularly and to rely on him daily for guidance. Even if something is written explicitly, people still interpret it differently. That's one reason people are always in court debating the interpretation of our laws.
Even to the extent that massive wars and great bloodshed and abuses and murders of children will happen in His name as a result of people being allowed to draw their own conclusions?
What about all the many many many Theists who do not merely "interpret" his scriptures their own way,
but insist that everyone else accept THEIR interpretation, as well??
if He is open to the interpretations being so fluid,
then why bother leaving a book, at all?
Especially when the people who "interpret" the book(s) are the ones doing most of the warring and killing,
while the people, like myself, who reject ALL the books and ALL the dogma
are still willing to allow for the existence of a God,
but don't want to assimilate, oppress, or kill anyone???
September 18, 2015 at 3:06 am (This post was last modified: September 18, 2015 at 3:08 am by robvalue.)
Lek: not sure if you missed my post earlier, or didn't want to reply to my points.
Either way, it's not in the least surprising that the NT lines up with the OT. The authors of the NT had the OT right in front of them. All they had to do is make up stuff that lines up with it. Anyone could do that. There's clear evidence of them trying a little too hard to do this in places, and due to them not understanding the language properly, they produced ridiculous scenes like Jesus riding on two asses at once. Matthew misunderstood the original, which only actually meant one ass.
It's like they had the answers at the back of the textbook and were just copying them. Is that really impressive? Are you impressed when one Harry Potter book lines up with the previous one?
Actually, Jesus doesn't line up at all with the OT. If he's meant to be God (originally he wasn't, that was a later addition) then he is also the psychopathic murderer we read about in the OT, which Christians try so hard to push to the background.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.
My own Christian grandfather was an easygoing man, generally,
but he got quite heated whenever he encountered Atheism,
or anything that challenged HIS belief structure.
One of his favourite things to vehemently say was:
" I don't BELIEVE there's a God, I KNOW there's a God!!! "
Now, I've always acknowledged that I cannot presume
to automatically dismiss the experiences that others claim to have had, as untruths,
simply because they cannot be documented, reproduced, or proven for my satisfaction.
But what bugs me is this:
The Bible tells us Ask, Seek, Knock.
And I did.
I am not going to waste time trying to impress Theists with the sincerity of my search.
I KNOW that I searched with every fiber of my being. I KNOW what I went through.
However, no matter how badly I needed to find what I was looking for,
I refused to lie to myself.
Either God would really speak to me,
....or I would hear only silence.
I wanted to find God.
But only if He was truly there to find.
I refused to give myself false comfort
by choosing to see miracles where there weren't any.
False comfort is no comfort at all.
What I found was not only disappointment.... but exactly the opposite of what YOU claim to have experienced.
So,
If the Bible is really the Word of God
And it can be trustedwhen it says"Ask, Seek, Knock" and numerous other promises,
and I know how hard I sought
(even if Theists want to insensitively, arrogantly,
and presumptuously trivialize the earnestness of my search, as they often have)
and I know that I was refusing to kid myself,
then, Lek,
WHY should I believe that my Grandfather actually had a personal experience of God's Love,
...and yet I had THE EXACT OPPOSITE???
Now, by having "the exact opposite"....I do not merely mean that I failed to find anything.
I DID have what you might call a very visceral, very unsettling, very specific supernatural experience.
But it was anything but comforting.
(I've already written about it in other threads, and I don't know if you've already read it or not).
My own Christian grandfather was an easygoing man, generally,
but he got quite heated whenever he encountered Atheism,
or anything that challenged HIS belief structure.
One of his favourite things to vehemently say was:
" I don't BELIEVE there's a God, I KNOW there's a God!!! "
Now, I've always acknowledged that I cannot presume
to automatically dismiss the experiences that others claim to have had, as untruths,
simply because they cannot be documented, reproduced, or proven for my satisfaction.
But what bugs me is this:
The Bible tells us Ask, Seek, Knock.
And I did.
I am not going to waste time trying to impress Theists with the sincerity of my search.
I KNOW that I searched with every fiber of my being. I KNOW what I went through.
However, no matter how badly I needed to find what I was looking for,
I refused to lie to myself.
Either God would really speak to me,
....or I would hear only silence.
I wanted to find God.
But only if He was truly there to find.
I refused to give myself false comfort
by choosing to see miracles where there weren't any.
False comfort is no comfort at all.
What I found was not only disappointment.... but exactly the opposite of what YOU claim to have experienced.
So,
If the Bible is really the Word of God
And it can be trustedwhen it says"Ask, Seek, Knock" and numerous other promises,
and I know how hard I sought
(even if Theists want to insensitively, arrogantly,
and presumptuously trivialize the earnestness of my search, as they often have)
and I know that I was refusing to kid myself,
then, Lek,
WHY should I believe that my Grandfather actually had a personal experience of God's Love,
...and yet I had THE EXACT OPPOSITE???
Now, by having "the exact opposite"....I do not merely mean that I failed to find anything.
I DID have what you might call a very visceral, very unsettling, very specific supernatural experience.
But it was anything but comforting.
(I've already written about it in other threads, and I don't know if you've already read it or not).
Lek, you "quoted" me into a reply, yet you left no actual reply.
So I know you saw my post...are you looking for the thread in which I left a description of my
"spiritual experience"?
If Yes, here it is, copied & pasted from the other thread:
A while back, when I was in the throes of letting go of the last shreds of my faith,
I hit my rock bottom one night...things were bad, in my family, and I had been wrestling with personal issues.
Finally I broke down and wept, prostrated myself before god,
admitted I had no faith left, begged His forgiveness and mercy, and begged for faith and illumination.
This is the point where most Theists would tell you that they fell asleep and had a dream about a great peace and serenity and a voice telling them to "Be not afraid, for I am with you", or something.
I had just the opposite.
I had taken my leap of faith, I relinquished all my pride and reason, and threw myself on God's mercy.
That night, I dreamt normally, until just before dawn.
Then suddenly my nondescript dreams shifted,
and became very visceral:
I still slept, but I dreamt I had opened my eyes, and looked around my room,
and in my dream, my room looked exactly as it would have looked IRL at that hour,
the first cracks of light around the drapes.
I dreamt I felt a cutting sensation in my chest, coming from within.
It was cold and hot at the same time, a searing sensation.
A fissure suddenly opened in my chest, a faint light emanated from within,
and very quickly, a glowing, bluish mist slipped outward and upward, and was gone in a second.
But in that split-second, a face appeared in the mist, and looked, knowingly, right at me.
I knew instantly it was Jesus.
His face was alert and conscious, but expressionless.
And he left me.
The fissure in my chest was hollow and dark.
I woke, and of course my hand flew to my chest, which of course was fine.
I sat up and thought it over.
Certainly it was a disquieting dream,
but the last vestiges of my Christianity left me.
The reasoning part of me realizes, of course, that this dream was my subconscious
telling me I am too old for this nonsense and I don't need it anymore.
But what I would point out to Theists, is this:
If your Jesus really exists, and really is who He SAYS that He is,
why in the world,
when someone has no pride left, no hope left, nothing...
...but pleads for His forgiveness and His guidance...
...why, contrary to everything the Bible says,
would Jesus respond to my plea by allowing me to have a dream of His leaving me,
...unless that is really what He was doing?
In other words,
even if you, as a Theist, think that this was my unrepentant brain
causing me to have a dream about Jesus,
that wasn't really Jesus,
...then why, after begging for faith, begging for mercy,
would he ALLOW my brain to have a dream like that???
Of being consciously abandoned by Him?
It can mean only one of two things:
1. There is no such thing as Jesus,
(and therefore no-one to prevent my brain from producing a dream like that, on its own)
...and I'm right to put away such childish things.
2. There IS a Jesus, but He is a LIAR and does NOT love me.
My own Christian grandfather was an easygoing man, generally,
but he got quite heated whenever he encountered Atheism,
or anything that challenged HIS belief structure.
One of his favourite things to vehemently say was:
" I don't BELIEVE there's a God, I KNOW there's a God!!! "
Now, I've always acknowledged that I cannot presume
to automatically dismiss the experiences that others claim to have had, as untruths,
simply because they cannot be documented, reproduced, or proven for my satisfaction.
But what bugs me is this:
The Bible tells us Ask, Seek, Knock.
And I did.
I am not going to waste time trying to impress Theists with the sincerity of my search.
I KNOW that I searched with every fiber of my being. I KNOW what I went through.
However, no matter how badly I needed to find what I was looking for,
I refused to lie to myself.
Either God would really speak to me,
....or I would hear only silence.
I wanted to find God.
But only if He was truly there to find.
I refused to give myself false comfort
by choosing to see miracles where there weren't any.
False comfort is no comfort at all.
What I found was not only disappointment.... but exactly the opposite of what YOU claim to have experienced.
So,
If the Bible is really the Word of God
And it can be trustedwhen it says"Ask, Seek, Knock" and numerous other promises,
and I know how hard I sought
(even if Theists want to insensitively, arrogantly,
and presumptuously trivialize the earnestness of my search, as they often have)
and I know that I was refusing to kid myself,
then, Lek,
WHY should I believe that my Grandfather actually had a personal experience of God's Love,
...and yet I had THE EXACT OPPOSITE???
Now, by having "the exact opposite"....I do not merely mean that I failed to find anything.
I DID have what you might call a very visceral, very unsettling, very specific supernatural experience.
But it was anything but comforting.
(I've already written about it in other threads, and I don't know if you've already read it or not).
I actually do believe you concerning your unanswered search for God. I still struggle with the same feelings myself, but here I am - a christian. I assume that you do consider your unsettling experience to have actually been a true supernatural experience. If so, then you do believe that there is a supernatural realm. When someone is trying to come close to God is when Satan tries his hardest to turn them away. All I can say is that you are not a finished work. As for your grandfather, I'm sure he had his faults, but how was his life as a whole? Are you just concentrating on the bad things?
Listen. I'm sorry to you and Rob and everyone else. When I post I often become overwhelmed with questions to reply to because I'm badly outnumbered. I want to reply to those questions, but I have to go away for a few days, so I'll have to put the replies on hold, but I will be back to this thread.
(September 18, 2015 at 12:00 pm)Lek Wrote: I actually do believe you concerning your unanswered search for God. I still struggle with the same feelings myself, but here I am - a christian. I assume that you do consider your unsettling experience to have actually been a true supernatural experience. If so, then you do believe that there is a supernatural realm. When someone is trying to come close to God is when Satan tries his hardest to turn them away. All I can say is that you are not a finished work. As for your grandfather, I'm sure he had his faults, but how was his life as a whole? Are you just concentrating on the bad things?
Listen. I'm sorry to you and Rob and everyone else. When I post I often become overwhelmed with questions to reply to because I'm badly outnumbered. I want to reply to those questions, but I have to go away for a few days, so I'll have to put the replies on hold, but I will be back to this thread.
(September 18, 2015 at 12:00 pm)Lek Wrote: I actually do believe you concerning your unanswered search for God. I still struggle with the same feelings myself, but here I am - a christian. I assume that you do consider your unsettling experience to have actually been a true supernatural experience. If so, then you do believe that there is a supernatural realm. When someone is trying to come close to God is when Satan tries his hardest to turn them away. All I can say is that you are not a finished work. As for your grandfather, I'm sure he had his faults, but how was his life as a whole? Are you just concentrating on the bad things?
Listen. I'm sorry to you and Rob and everyone else. When I post I often become overwhelmed with questions to reply to because I'm badly outnumbered. I want to reply to those questions, but I have to go away for a few days, so I'll have to put the replies on hold, but I will be back to this thread.
Did you see my reply to you, at the bottom of Post #27 of this thread?
I included my "experience", but it's hidden content...you'll have to click to read.
