Quandary

[Edwardo Piet]

I'd take a look at the evidence for deism.

And I'd notice there isn't any.

The mental block in the way is probably: The argument from personal incredulity.

[Cinjin]

All of you have valid reasoning on varied levels.  I do enjoy everyone's unique perspective around here ... always have.

The dark truth is that I genuinely like the idea of a creator being, regardless of what he may call himself.  Not the afterlife, punishment and reward, heaven and hell or any of that other ridiculous bull shit, but rather the simplicity of someday discovering a "spiritual string theory" if you will.   The ambiguity that deism offers me has come to be almost a warm blanket of limitless possibilities that my imagination can embrace and my sense of reason can overlook.

Still, to say "I believe in God,"  feels dishonest somehow.  Maybe it's the word, God.  Christians have made it such a dark dirty word full of evil intentions and unlimited suffering.  I don't know.  I'm sort of thinking out loud and typing on the fly ...

Anyway, if I have a hard time calling myself a deist, I have an equally difficult time calling myself an atheist.   
Regardless of the existence of a creator being, I believe in the possibility of reincarnation without the existence of any creator being.  I know ... not very atheistic is it.  

And the rub of it all --- religion annoys the hell out of me.  I find most christians to be the stupidest most gullible people on the planet, 2nd only to those primitives in the Middle East who worship that other angry brutal deity hell-bent on eternal damnation and world wide genocide.  
How does one come to terms with all that?  

As Ignoramus brought to mind - should I just slap an agnostic label on my shirt and keep it down?  Or is this what de-conversion feels like and I just forgot the process?

[TheRocketSurgeon]

All of you have valid reasoning on varied levels.  I do enjoy everyone's unique perspective around here ... always have.

The dark truth is that I genuinely like the idea of a creator being, regardless of what he may call himself.  Not the afterlife, punishment and reward, heaven and hell or any of that other ridiculous bull shit, but rather the simplicity of someday discovering a "spiritual string theory" if you will.   The ambiguity that deism offers me has come to be almost a warm blanket of limitless possibilities that my imagination can embrace and my sense of reason can overlook.

Still, to say "I believe in God,"  feels dishonest somehow.  Maybe it's the word, God.  Christians have made it such a dark dirty word full of evil intentions and unlimited suffering.  I don't know.  I'm sort of thinking out loud and typing on the fly ...

Anyway, if I have a hard time calling myself a deist, I have an equally difficult time calling myself an atheist.   
Regardless of the existence of a creator being, I believe in the possibility of reincarnation without the existence of any creator being.  I know ... not very atheistic is it.  

And the rub of it all --- religion annoys the hell out of me.  I find most christians to be the stupidest most gullible people on the planet, 2nd only to those primitives in the Middle East who worship that other angry brutal deity hell-bent on eternal damnation and world wide genocide.  
How does one come to terms with all that?  

As Ignoramus brought to mind - should I just slap an agnostic label on my shirt and keep it down?  Or is this what de-conversion feels like and I just forgot the process?

The answer is "all of the above". As Iggy told you, there's no rush to put a label on yourself, and no reason to hurry in your determination of the nature of the universe. If you figure it out one second before you die, great! If not, great! 

On the other hand, most of us went through periods of struggling to hold on to the "warm blanket" ideas, during our deconversion processes. Again, it's not something to rush or to get too worked up about. Whatever you end up deciding, we'll be glad to have you as a full-fledged community member. It's the nice thing about being an atheist; as long as you're a thoughtful person, intellectually honest, and considerate of reality and of the feelings/needs of your fellow man, we don't care about the rest of your ideological conclusions. We have no dogma to fault you for failing to meet, really, other than the aforementioned, and they're not even universal. We might actively question your conclusions, but you should be doing that for yourself, all the time, even on things you feel fairly certain about. That's pretty much the definition of "intellectual honesty".

All that said, I certainly agree with the description you've given for the religious ideologies of this planet. You'll fit right in, here! Beyond that, take your time and try not to stress yourself out about it. Read lots of books.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I think it's healthy to question one's premises.

I think it's natural to doubt.

I think it's healthy to embrace change so long as it's well thought-out.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

I think it's healthy to question one's premises.

I think it's natural to doubt.

I think it's healthy to embrace change so long as it's well thought-out.

Are those lyrics to one of your songs, PT?

If not, fix!

[Thumpalumpacus]

I think it's healthy to question one's premises.

I think it's natural to doubt.

I think it's healthy to embrace change so long as it's well thought-out.

Are those lyrics to one of your songs, PT?

If not, fix!

No ... didn't even see that the meter (firs two lines together, last line alone) mate up, nor did I spot the rhyme.

I guess I think lyrically on occasion?

Good eye, bud. May well be a kernel of a song there ... I've got several instrumentals waiting for words, and change is always a good topic.

[robvalue]

The problem is, I think I meant it.  Bit of a quandary now.  Am I still a deist or have I given up on all things creator driven?
Am I an atheist?  Am I beginning to convert?  I've never assigned importance to the God I ascribe to, and have even surmised that he/she may have very well died.
None the less, I seem to have turned some sort of corner.  My atheistic leanings may be more than that.
hmm.
Part of me is ready to let go and part of me wonders why I even consider any of it at all.

One thing I've learned about myself is I have the hardest time being honest when I'm evaluating myself. As soon as I question my own motives, I can see the "obvious" answer, but I can also see some reason I might be lying to myself out of convenience. Once I acknowledge that possibility, it becomes next to impossible for me to evaluate why I feel a certain way.

When it came to my own experience of letting go of faith, it was slow-going (taking about two years), and a lot of it was driven by how I felt. If you are losing your faith/in a temporary period of doubt/just asking questions, it's entirely possible you might feel comfortable identifying one way one day, and another the next day. There's no need to rush into it.

This is so true! I remember hearing somewhere that we often make decisions for emotional reasons, and then try and justify them rationally. Once I heard this, I realised how guilty of it I was (if guilty is the right word). I want to do something, and so I look for reasons why I should do it. I start making internal excuses for my behaviour, to try and appease my inner critic. I'm not talking about anything horrible here, just things like having one more game of Hearthstone.

I would personally describe deism as atheism with emotional attachments to the concept of a god. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. One can know/believe intellectually that something is irrational, but yet keep it alive on an emotional level. Like I've said to people before, who are coming out of Christianity but feeling scared, there's no compulsion to let go of the idea of Jesus. Things are as emotionally real to you as they seem. Jesus, or God, can still be your friend, your guide, your inspiriation, your comfort. They can retain whatever characteristics it is you liked about them when you believed they are real. You don't have to purge any of those feelings.

I talk to my pets who have passed away. Scientifically, I know they don't exist anymore in any meaningful way. Emotionally, they are still alive to me, and retain all the things I love about them. I think of them as being happy and safe in another place emotionally, while not having to actually believe it is literally true at all.

[Cinjin]

One thing I've learned about myself is I have the hardest time being honest when I'm evaluating myself. As soon as I question my own motives, I can see the "obvious" answer, but I can also see some reason I might be lying to myself out of convenience. Once I acknowledge that possibility, it becomes next to impossible for me to evaluate why I feel a certain way.

When it came to my own experience of letting go of faith, it was slow-going (taking about two years), and a lot of it was driven by how I felt. If you are losing your faith/in a temporary period of doubt/just asking questions, it's entirely possible you might feel comfortable identifying one way one day, and another the next day. There's no need to rush into it.

This is so true! I remember hearing somewhere that we often make decisions for emotional reasons, and then try and justify them rationally. Once I heard this, I realised how guilty of it I was (if guilty is the right word). I want to do something, and so I look for reasons why I should do it. I start making internal excuses for my behaviour, to try and appease my inner critic. I'm not talking about anything horrible here, just things like having one more game of Hearthstone.

I would personally describe deism as atheism with emotional attachments to the concept of a god. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. One can know/believe intellectually that something is irrational, but yet keep it alive on an emotional level. Like I've said to people before, who are coming out of Christianity but feeling scared, there's no compulsion to let go of the idea of Jesus. Things are as emotionally real to you as they seem. Jesus, or God, can still be your friend, your guide, your inspiriation, your comfort. They can retain whatever characteristics it is you liked about them when you believed they are real. You don't have to purge any of those feelings.

I talk to my pets who have passed away. Scientifically, I know they don't exist anymore in any meaningful way. Emotionally, they are still alive to me, and retain all the things I love about them. I think of them as being happy and safe in another place emotionally, while not having to actually believe it is literally true at all.

Very interesting Rob (both Robs really).  RP touched on it and RV reaffirmed with:  "I would personally describe deism as atheism with emotional attachments to the concept of a god."  
I can understand and get on board with that idea.  Perhaps I've known all along that my belief was always just for sentimentality rather than realistic contemplation.  After all, even when I was a gullible christian moron I didn't ever see god as a loving father that I would miss.  Rather, I was hell-bent on knowing a god that would leave me the fuck alone and didn't commit genocide when he found some humans giving blowjobs and eating crustaceans.  

If there is a God, or there WAS a God, then I'd like to believe that he just doesn't care whether or not I ever believed in him.  Why would he?  
Would it really bother him if I cast off my label only to find myself saddled with another?
Perhaps it is your idea that best answers my quandary RobV.  Scientifically, I know he doesn't exist anymore, but emotionally, perhaps he can remain a part of my hopeful imagination.  I say that, because in truth, I haven't been in the least bit concerned about my own afterlife in many years.  It would seem that I've always been here.  I just didn't really know it.

Yeah, I think I can have peace with that.
I'm not sure what to call that particular label, but I'm also not sure it matters anymore.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Where the HELL did I leave my trousers??

Boru

[Edwardo Piet]

Well one day maybe you will feel a big relief when you feel fully comfortable living as an atheist. Then you won't have to worry about it all.

But until then I wish you the best whatever makes you cope with life.