Quandary

[Simon Moon]

Come again?

Is Anslem a Star Trek reference?  Seriously, you lost me.

Ohhh -

thank you Evie for the clarification.  Chad, a quick proof-read might have aided me in deciphering that mess of a post you made.  christ.  Spelling, grammar, punctuation, hell - even correct word usage ... never mind, I digress.

By your own statement aren't you then implying that your christian god would inevitably fall into a fictional status?

That's where Chad's special pleading enters.

------------------------

But seriously, responding to the OP. 

Belief is defined by neuroscientists and analytic philosophers of mind as "the psychological state in which one accepts a premise or proposition as being true".

Atheism is the disbelief in the existence of gods. 

If you currently do not accept the existence of a god as being true, you are an atheist. 

If you believe at least one god exists, you are a theist (deist).

[robvalue]

The thing is, even as a deist, I would assume one would take the position that nothing can be known about whatever this "God" is. So it's not like you can (rationally) have any beliefs about it, other than just believing there is one. Whether or not there actually is one, or whether it's just a feeling or your imagination, becomes kind of moot. Anything you think about it is still your imagination.

I don't mean to speak for you though, you may not feel the same way as I would.

[Cinjin]

The thing is, even as a deist, I would assume one would take the position that nothing can be known about whatever this "God" is. So it's not like you can (rationally) have any beliefs about it, other than just believing there is one. Whether or not there actually is one, or whether it's just a feeling or your imagination, becomes kind of moot. Anything you think about it is still your imagination.

I don't mean to speak for you though, you may not feel the same way as I would.

One could easily argue that the admittance of no proof of god automatically assigns that god to one's imagination.  And in truth, I admit that argument has some credence. 
However, millions of christians and muslims alike admit that there is no tangible proof of their god - only their adamant belief that their feelings "prove his existence to them."
Just because someone doesn't know for sure that something exists doesn't mean they are willing to relegate that idea to their imagination.  Slapping that label on anything tends to diminish its value greatly.  After all, no christian likes to be told that his messiah is a fictional character in his own imagination - which is probably why it's such a fun insult to throw at christians.  

At any rate, I may be a special case - time will tell.  

I know this:  If God is not real, I accept it without pain or sadness.  If God is or was real, I look forward to what may come of my soul.  Regardless of which one is true, the only thing I use my imagination for is the hope that he is real - not the actual nature or identity of who he might be.  I guess what I'm trying to say is that my imagination didn't dream up God, it merely keeps him around.

[robvalue]

Sure.

Can I ask, why do you hope there is a god? For one thing, what makes you think such a being is going to be something you would automatically like and not despise?

Say you found out it is enjoying our suffering, or is simply indifferent to our very experience. Or are you making assumptions about what this God would be like?

These aren't criticisms, I'm genuinely interested

[Cinjin]

Sure.

Can I ask, why do you hope there is a god? For one thing, what makes you think such a being is going to be something you would automatically like and not despise?

Say you found out it is enjoying our suffering, or is simply indifferent to our very experience. Or are you making assumptions about what this God would be like?

These aren't criticisms, I'm genuinely interested

If God, the creator being, proved to exist it would plausibly (at least to me) mean a few things.  
One, that there is an afterlife of some sort.  After all, I don't foresee any other way of finding proof of God's existence in this current life of ours. Which means two, he made a plan for souls to move on into another form of existence.  It seems very unlikely that he's going to go to those lengths just to see tiny peons grovel for an eternity.  Would you care to make an ant bow before you - unlikely.  Three, he's an artist or at least artistic on some level and loves creating beautiful amazing things.  A universe full of life with millions of intelligent species in it.  Artistic, creative people tend to be the kind of people I spend the majority of my time with.  Four, God very likely wouldn't go by the name of 'God' and wouldn't subscribe to the petty human emotions that christards have assigned him ... not that I believe for a moment they would even be one in the same.

Maybe I really only hope for a creator being because I have questions, but in truth it doesn't seem likely that he/she/it would even bother to talk to me at all.  That's ok.  I don't need love or acceptance.  I'd be perfectly fine knowing that a system had been set up that created an unending cycle of life until such time that my soul simply expired.
I don't know that I can explain it better than that.  Yes, it's unnecessary.  One might say it's even childish.  

There are still things in this world/universe that go unexplained and unanswered.  There are things I've personally experienced regarding spirits/ghost that no one can even begin to wrap their mind around.  The funny thing is - I remain a pretty staunch skeptic regarding ALL things spiritual.  Ergo, my "faith" remains hope and my belief remains elusive.

I apologize if that muddy's the waters.

[robvalue]

Thanks for sharing

I don't see the connection with an afterlife at all, personally. We have very good explanations for how we happened to come about as a species, and we were not the goal of that mechanism. Did everything along the evolutionary tree get an afterlife too, or did it just start happening when humans came about?

The most plausible "God" scenario to me is that this is a computer simulation, and so "God" is the programmer. We happened to come about as part of this simulation and have somehow become self aware. Maybe this kind of thing has been going on in computer simulations we have run, making us "gods".

I'm not criticising you, you're of course entitled to believe whatever you want I'm just giving my take on things, if you're interested. If you're not, I'll shut my stupid pie hole!

[Esquilax]

If God, the creator being, proved to exist it would plausibly (at least to me) mean a few things.  
One, that there is an afterlife of some sort.  After all, I don't foresee any other way of finding proof of God's existence in this current life of ours. Which means two, he made a plan for souls to move on into another form of existence.  It seems very unlikely that he's going to go to those lengths just to see tiny peons grovel for an eternity.  Would you care to make an ant bow before you - unlikely.

Neither of these are necessarily true, not to rain on your parade. They're assumptions you're making based on pre-existing god narratives; it's equally possible that there's a creator that created a universe for some other purpose, no afterlife included, that just happens to have complex life on it as an emergent property of the systems that creator put in place. Or life exists to serve a purpose that holds no benefit to the life itself; I've seen stories where human life in this world lives and dies to generate energy to fuel the magic system in some other world, that's not any more or less far fetched than an afterlife.

 Three, he's an artist or at least artistic on some level and loves creating beautiful amazing things.  A universe full of life with millions of intelligent species in it.  Artistic, creative people tend to be the kind of people I spend the majority of my time with.

Beauty is a highly subjective quality, why are you assuming that a god shares exactly human ideals of beauty to begin with?

 Four, God very likely wouldn't go by the name of 'God' and wouldn't subscribe to the petty human emotions that christards have assigned him ... not that I believe for a moment they would even be one in the same.

So, wait: god wouldn't be beholden to petty human emotions... but he would subscribe to human standards of beauty, and also their ideas of what he should do with them after they die?

Hopefully none of that comes across as too harsh? I mean it as a conversation starter, not an attack.

[Cinjin]

If God, the creator being, proved to exist it would plausibly (at least to me) mean a few things.  
One, that there is an afterlife of some sort.  After all, I don't foresee any other way of finding proof of God's existence in this current life of ours. Which means two, he made a plan for souls to move on into another form of existence.  It seems very unlikely that he's going to go to those lengths just to see tiny peons grovel for an eternity.  Would you care to make an ant bow before you - unlikely.

Neither of these are necessarily true, not to rain on your parade. They're assumptions you're making based on pre-existing god narratives;

True.  I would remind everyone that everything I wrote is conjecture and nothing more.

it's equally possible that there's a creator that created a universe for some other purpose, no afterlife included, that just happens to have complex life on it as an emergent property of the systems that creator put in place. Or life exists to serve a purpose that holds no benefit to the life itself; I've seen stories where human life in this world lives and dies to generate energy to fuel the magic system in some other world, that's not any more or less far fetched than an afterlife.

That too is possible.  I need remind the readers that I only mentioned the afterlife possibility because of my own experiences with spirits/ghosts. Also that finding proof of God in this current life has proven to be an elusive if not impossible task and that dying might present new possibilities of "God Identification."  There may not be any afterlife.  I'm fine with that as well.  Once again I'm brought back to the mere hope that God is real - not faith.  I believe that was the whole point of the Quandary thread.

 Three, he's an artist or at least artistic on some level and loves creating beautiful amazing things.  A universe full of life with millions of intelligent species in it.  Artistic, creative people tend to be the kind of people I spend the majority of my time with.

Beauty is a highly subjective quality, why are you assuming that a god shares exactly human ideals of beauty to begin with?

I don't believe I am.  I have not seen any humans create anything that comes even close to the beauty that the universe offers.  That of course is arguable and subjective.  In addition, some assumptions have to be made in order to believe in anything that has no proof of existence.  Even I, in all my ambiguous ramblings, am forced to make some assumptions.

 Four, God very likely wouldn't go by the name of 'God' and wouldn't subscribe to the petty human emotions that christards have assigned him ... not that I believe for a moment they would even be one in the same.

So, wait: god wouldn't be beholden to petty human emotions... but he would subscribe to human standards of beauty, and also their ideas of what he should do with them after they die?

No, not at all.  If I find something that you created beautiful, that doesn't mean that you in turn must've created it for my standards of beauty.  The two can remain mutually exclusive.  Regarding what he should or should not do with them after they die again has nothing to do with my personal interest in his doing so.  I offered up no reason or excuse for God to do anything, only how I would perceive those actions.  

Hopefully none of that comes across as too harsh? I mean it as a conversation starter, not an attack.

No not harsh at all.  I welcome the discussion.  I would encourage anyone to disagree with me.  I have no faith to be damaged and no word of god to defend.  

[Edwardo Piet]

I need remind the readers that I only mentioned the afterlife possibility because of my own experiences with spirits/ghosts. 

You mean your own experiences of other things that you almost certainly incorrectly mistook for experiences of spirits/ghosts.

[Cinjin]

I need remind the readers that I only mentioned the afterlife possibility because of my own experiences with spirits/ghosts. 

You mean your own experiences of other things that you almost certainly incorrectly mistook for experiences of spirits/ghosts.

It's possible I suppose.  I wouldn't say "almost certainly," but yes, I suppose I can't rule out some sort of unknown science that no one has ever documented or heard of.