Objectifying women

[Eilonnwy]

Are you really comparing flirty outfits to your dick hanging out? Really?

Dotard, you are an idiot. What you are suggesting is that women cannot wear anything suggestive, without inviting assault. First off, the facts don't even match with your assertion. There are no statistics that show women walking around in flirty outfits are more likely to get raped. So your thinking has a fatal flaw there anyway.

Second, IT'S MY FUCKING BODY. I'm not flashing my tits around, so it's not the fucking same as you waving your cock around. Woman aren't walking around with tits out, but somehow wearing a tight top means she's contributing to her assault. The absurdity of your assertion is so fucking crazy, I can't even comprehend how you think anything you're saying makes sense.

I get that you're a man, so maybe you don't understand why your assertion is so incredibly sexist. But let me give you a hint. I'm a woman. I know people who have been sexually assaulted and rape. I go through life constantly with people making sexual overtures at me. I shrug most of it off, I know it's mostly innocent ignorant BS. I've never had anything terrible happen to me, but I have been at clubs where all I wanted to do was dance with my friends and men think that because I'm there it means I want to have sex. I can't tell you how many times I have to go to a male friend to get help with getting some creep off me. By your assertion my dancing in a cute top is my fault that creeps are all over me. By your assertion I should know better if I want to enjoy myself with my friends. By your assertion I am no better than money, to be hidden away if I want to feel safe. I am a person, this is my body. No one has a right to touch it, doesn't matter what the fuck I am wearing.

You're a man. You have the privilege of walking down the street in whatever you want and not being judged or catcalled at. You can walk late at night and not worry if the person walking a little too close behind you might attack you. You don't know what it's like to be a woman, and I am certain that's why you don't understand how incredibly offensive and downright ignorant your assertions are.

[Eilonnwy]

Oh, and as a side note. Stop derailing the topic. Is it the 'game' of beauty pagaents and men's magazines and such that incurs your wraith or is it the 'players' which whom without there would be no game?

I think it's relevant if you insist woman should be able to flaunt their stuff without calling it "Objectifying" but then insist that if they do flaunt their stuff and get raped, well they should have know better. It's hypocritical.

And on another note, the reason I have such big problems with your statements is it feeds into the greater "blame the victim" rhetoric that actually gets rapists let off.

Here's an example: http://womensrights.change.org/blog/view...pe_defense

[Shinylight]

I think it's relevant if you insist woman should be able to flaunt their stuff without calling it "Objectifying" but then insist that if they do flaunt their stuff and get raped, well they should have know better. It's hypocritical.

And on another note, the reason I have such big problems with your statements is it feeds into the greater "blame the victim" rhetoric that actually gets rapists let off.

Here's an example: http://womensrights.change.org/blog/view...pe_defense

The rape case was let go because of the nature of the skinny jeans and their difficulty in removal not because she was being unintentionally provocative.

A jury in Australia refused to convict a man of rape because they doubted the victim's skinny jeans could "be removed without any sort of collaboration."

I have to admit that is a ridiculous judgement, it is like saying that someone couldn't rob a bank because it is really difficult to do such an act.

[Dotard]

Are you really comparing flirty outfits to your dick hanging out? Really?

So should I have said "ass-less chaps"? Shit, just insert your own homo-erotic clothing in lieu of 'dick hanging out'.

Dotard, you are an idiot.

Ahhh... name calling. A sure sign the convo is coming to and end and you are running out of sensible arguements.

What you are suggesting is that women cannot wear anything suggestive, without inviting assault. First off, the facts don't even match with your assertion. There are no statistics that show women walking around in flirty outfits are more likely to get raped. So your thinking has a fatal flaw there anyway.

I guess you forgot we went thru all this before. You provided some rape awareness flyers from a college andd a bunch of personal opinion as 'proof' I provided some links to actual studies. You can probably dig that thread up a lot easier than I.

Second, IT'S MY FUCKING BODY. I'm not flashing my tits around, so it's not the fucking same as you waving your cock around.

And if you were you would be contributing to the likelihood of them being fondled or molested against your will. I'm not waving my cock around, so true, it's not the fucking same as you waving your tits around. What have you proven there?

Woman aren't walking around with tits out,

Do I need continue? You know I can find a million examples of women walking around with tits hanging out.

The absurdity of your assertion is so fucking crazy, I can't even comprehend how you think anything you're saying makes sense.

I think the same of your contentions. I know where you are coming from, I'm contending you are not being realistic. What 'should' and what 'is' are two different things. What 'is' is that if I have something others will take from me forcibly then I shoulder partial blame for not taking precautions to protect it. 'Should' I have to? No. DO I have to? Yes.

I get that you're a man, so maybe you don't understand why your assertion is so incredibly sexist. But let me give you a hint. I'm a woman. I know people who have been sexually assaulted and rape. I go through life constantly with people making sexual overtures at me. I shrug most of it off, I know it's mostly innocent ignorant BS. I've never had anything terrible happen to me, but I have been at clubs where all I wanted to do was dance with my friends and men think that because I'm there it means I want to have sex.

Men think that huh? Quite the blanket statement and I think shows where the problem you have lies.

By your assertion my dancing in a cute top is my fault that creeps are all over me.

Cute or revealing? Cute meaning little bunny patterns or frilly sleeves? Or "cute" as in 1/2 the tits are hanging out? If the latter, then yes, you shoulder partial blame for the creeps hanging all around you.

By your assertion I should know better if I want to enjoy myself with my friends. By your assertion I am no better than money, to be hidden away if I want to feel safe.

No goddamnit. I'm saying your body is your property. Equal to your money being your property. It's a possession you have that some others are willing to forcibly take from you. Yes, cover the tits to contribute to your safety. Jeeez, you seem to think just because someone has not the right to take your property that they won't take your property. What planet are you on?

I am a person, this is my body. No one has a right to touch it, doesn't matter what the fuck I am wearing.

AND I FUCKING AGREE! How many times must I say that?

You're a man. You have the privilege of walking down the street in whatever you want and not being judged or catcalled at.

Bullshit. I should have the right. But it is not a given. Nobody judges me? HA! You are doing that right now. No one catcalls me? Well, true dat, but it is never a guarantee it won't happen if I walk down the street in ass-less chaps in the fag-light district.

You can walk late at night and not worry if the person walking a little too close behind you might attack you.

Bull-fucking-shit. If I'm walking late at night and a person is walking a little too close behind me, damned straight I'm going to be concerned about an attack. Doubley so if I got my property hanging out for all to see.

You don't know what it's like to be a woman,

Damn, there just might be a God.

and I am certain that's why you don't understand how incredibly offensive and downright ignorant your assertions are.

Offensive? Maybe. Offensiveness doesn't dictate reality. My assertions are based on how reality operates in the here and now.
Ignorant? Nah. I would contend your position is based on ignorance that property (money, your body, your shoes) all need reasonable protective measures to protect them. Flaunting your possessions is not a reasonable protective measure.

You advocate 0 (zero) personal responsibility.

[tavarish]

You are suggesting they had something to do with the rape, how the fuck is that not blaming them? These attitudes make me fucking sick. It's the same as suggesting that if a woman gets drunk it's okay for a man to take advantage.

If a woman says no, it doesn't matter if she's drunk, wearing skinny jeans, or some tight revealing clothing. No means fucking no and the fault lies entirely with the perpetrator.

No means yes and yes means harder.

[Shinylight]

You are suggesting they had something to do with the rape, how the fuck is that not blaming them? These attitudes make me fucking sick. It's the same as suggesting that if a woman gets drunk it's okay for a man to take advantage.

If a woman says no, it doesn't matter if she's drunk, wearing skinny jeans, or some tight revealing clothing. No means fucking no and the fault lies entirely with the perpetrator.

No means yes and yes means harder.

BOOOOOOMM!!!!

Watch your head

[Dotard]

And your link does nothing to prove your case. It is NOT about, "well, she was wearing skinny jeans so it's her fault"

It's about judges not buying into the rape story because they were convinced it was consensual (<--HA! Upon proof reading I just noticed that. It should be consentual. Innocent mistake but funny in this context). You seem to believe just because one claims rape, then it really was rape. You seem to think it NEVER EVER happens that a woman will consent to sex, then when she doesn't get a call the next day or the guy says "thanks for the fun" and goes his own way some women will claim "rape" as a retailitory move because she got her "feelings hurt".

Men are never innocent and women are SOOOOO persecuted because they actually have to PROVE a rape occured.

Who's the ignorant one here again?

[tavarish]

So if I have a sign on my car saying "I have $1000 in the glovebox", will that make my car more or less likely to get broken into?

Seriously, I'm all for women flaunting their stuff, but please realize there are risks involved. Again, back to a car analogy - I work on my car to make it look better and faster, but with this, I attract attention, both good and bad, and there's always a risk I'll wake up with nothing in my driveway, so I'm extra careful. Pretending that the risk doesn't exist doesn't magically make the risk go away, and it doesn't remove my obligations to take such safeguards against theft, and in the woman's case - rape.

If you're walking with your tits and ass hanging out - by all means, go for it. Just carry a tazer or a gun, cause things do happen, and it's easier to wave a gun and diffuse a situation than to go through years of therapy and never feeling clean.

---

And your link does nothing to prove your case. It is NOT about, "well, she was wearing skinny jeans so it's her fault"

It's about judges not buying into the rape story because they were convinced it was consensual. You seem to believe just because one claims rape, then it really was rape. You seem to think it NEVER EVER happens that a woman will consent to sex, then when she doesn't get a call the next day or the guy says "thanks for the fun" and goes his own way some women will claim "rape" as a retailitory move because she got her "feelings hurt".

Men are never innocent and women are SOOOOO persecuted because they actually have to PROVE a rape occured.

Who's the ignorant one here again?

It's funny that everytime there's a case of rape the man is automatically guilty, same as in a domestic violence suit.

Something similar happened to a patient of my mom's. A young girl came in and said she and her boyfriend were having sex when her parents came home and found them out. She later claimed he raped her, and now they're broken up and the parents are pressing charges. She then went to the clinic to see if she was pregnant, and to find a way to get her parents to drop the charges.

I'm not saying this is the majority of situations, but it does happens, and just because a woman yells "rape" doesn't mean it actually happened that way.

I see Eilonnwy arguing more from emotion than from a detached view.

---

And another quick rant.

Wearing revealing clothing means people will look at you if you can pull it off. I don't understand why women are surprised or disgusted when men stare at them when they wear clothes made for that kind of stuff. You know what you looked like coming out of the house this morning, cut the bullshit.

If I cut a hole in my jeans so you could see my nutsack, I wouldn't be surprised when people look.

[Eilonnwy]

You show pictures of women with sexy clothing and equate it with tits hanging out, and thus the same as your dick swinging freely? Wut?

I'm not advocating zero responsibility, I'm advocating that women aren't fucking objects, like money. We are people. You, and a lot of other people *cough* Bill O'Reilly *cough* don't seem to respect that fact.

I'm done with this bullshit.

[bozo]

This is a response to Dotard's initial post.
I agree, women participate of their own free will in beauty contests, thereby setting themselves up as objects to be admired or not.
I also agree some womens' bodies are beautiful, a sight to behold. Conversely no doubt, the same applies to some mens' bodies.

I disagree with Dotard's conclusions, however.
I like women, I like beautiful women, but I am disappointed that some choose to participate in such shallow and, in my view, demeaning spectacles as beauty contests.
So I blame the game and the bimbos that willingly enter them.