Objectifying women

[Godhead]

In this mind -

It would be no use responding to anything you've said over the last few hours, however one thing needs to be said, and I dare say I speak for the majority here who have been reading your posts :

You need counselling fast. And you're unlikely to get it on a forum. Seek help immediately.

[Dotard]

With an emphasis on 'reality orientation'.

[In This Mind]

In This Mind, you are the best example of an irrational thinker. When people present counter arguments, you present insults and outright fallacies. I'm sorry someone tried to rape you, but just because we think that rape can be prevented by using common sense and not taking risks, does not mean we are a bunch of rapists.

I have offered proof of my statements. You are repeating proven falsehoods and calling them 'common sense'. And then you are telling me I am the one that needs help.

Wow. Way to prove my points.


Let's look at a simple question.

Since offering women this 'advice' in the form of 'common sense', and since women have begun following it thinking it will protect them:

Has there been any reduction in rape statistics?

Wait...what? Incidences of sexual assault have gone up. Interesting.

So, it would appear that the 'advice' you are giving does not actually has a negative impact on the safety of the woman.

[Tiberius]

I didn't see any proof that taking a taxi home, or walking home with friends, or staying at friend's house, meant that those people had an equal chance of being raped. Are you really suggesting that there are an equal number of people getting raped in taxis, or with friends, than people who were stupid and decided to go home alone? Proof please.

Also, I didn't say you needed help. You've just proved my point; you can't stand the fact that I disagree, so instead of presenting arguments against my points, you lie and claim I'm a rapist (or share similar intent).

I also never said this advice is a form of common sense. I said that both "common sense" and "not taking risks" would lead to less rape instances in the women who follow that advice. You are making a faulty comparison by saying that rape incidences should have gone down because of this; that isn't what we are saying at all. What we are saying is that there is a reason why women in groups, or who take taxis home, or stay at friends, don't get raped. It's because they aren't taking a massive risk.

Rapists will go after women, and I'll agree that wearing clothing doesn't affect the intent of the rapist, but there are factors that will. If a rapist sees 3 girls walking home, and 1 girl walking home alone, you can bet that he's going to go for the girl alone. So, an accurate comparison for you to do is to look at the number of rapes that take place when the girl is walking home alone, and compare it to the number of rapes where the girl has taken a taxi or walked with friends.

[Paul the Human]

@In This Mind:

At risk of having my head bitten off, it seems to me that you are emotionally upset by the subject of rape and the way defense attorneys attempt to shift a measure of the blame onto the victim (and therefore, off of the rapist)... and I can't blame you. I don't believe that anyone here has claimed, or even insinuated, that a rape victim holds any of the blame for the rape itself. I believe that you are so ready to defend against that claim/insinuation that you are going out of your way to find it. The problem is that you are only 'finding' it by imagining meanings that were not intended and by putting words into people's mouths. Completely altering a statement ("by this, you said this") can change that statement's intended meaning entirely. It is intellectually dishonest at best and only ends up sounding hysterical.

Hypothetically, let's say that you and I know each other socially and, on Saturday night, I go out to the club for a bit of fun and sit at a table with a group of 'club friends'.. I have a few drinks, watch a few people dance (I don't dance), and have a good time with my 'club friends'. One of those 'club friends' happens to be you. Now, at the end of the evening, as we are all getting ready to leave, myself and a couple of other people offer a ride home to anyone that needs one (drank too much, whatever).

You say, "No thanks, I only live two blocks from here. I'll walk."

'Cindy' says, "You sure? I'm dropping Christina and Kelly off at their place. You really shouldn't walk alone this late."

You say, "Nah. I could use the fresh air."

So we all go our separate ways. You walk home alone... and less than a block from home, a man grabs you and pulls you behind a dumpster. You are raped.

Cindy and Christina and Kelly all made it home safely, but now Cindy experiences guilt for not insisting you ride with her. When she sees you next, she expresses her sorrow for what happened to you and says that she wishes she wouldn't have let you walk home alone.

You go into hysterics and accuse her of blaming you? I'd bet not. She offered you the opportunity to avoid the risk that walking home alone presents and you chose to walk home alone. So, whose fault is the rape? The rapist's, of course! If you would have taken that offered ride, you probably would have been safe... but the rapist would have simply grabbed a different woman walking home alone and putting herself at risk. And that rape will not have been her fault, even though she could have avoided the risk.

The Moral of the Story: Offering you advice on how to minimize the risk of being raped is not the same thing as blaming you if the rape occurs. In my opinion, you are way out of line in this thread.

[Godhead]

Paul -

I don't think In this mind is being totally sincere with us.

[Dotard]

Since offering women this 'advice' in the form of 'common sense', and since women have begun following it thinking it will protect them:

Has there been any reduction in rape statistics?

Wait...what? Incidences of sexual assault have gone up. Interesting.

Women have begun following it? Interesting. Prove it.

Prove women have begun following it.

[In This Mind]

Offering you advice on how to minimize the risk of being raped is not the same thing as blaming you if the rape occurs. In my opinion, you are way out of line in this thread.

If X, then Y
Y
Therefore X

If not X, then not Y
Not Y
Therefore not X

If you dress like a slut, you will get raped
You get raped
Therefore you dressed like a slut

If you don't dress like a slut, you won't get raped
You don't get raped
Therefore you didn't dress like a slut


Now, have I made it clear enough for you to possibly, just maybe a little tiny bit, understand that by placing the onus of avoiding rape on the women, you are in effect blaming the women if they get raped?

Cindy and Christina and Kelly all made it home safely, but now Cindy experiences guilt for not insisting you ride with her. When she sees you next, she expresses her sorrow for what happened to you and says that she wishes she wouldn't have let you walk home alone.

Her actions have absolutely nothing to do with the act of rape occurring, it's her way of dealing with the fear that she herself could be a victim at anytime, by buying into the mindset that if only she behaved a certain way she would have nothing to fear.

You go into hysterics and accuse her of blaming you? I'd bet not.

Depends entirely on how she says it. There are some versions of Cindy who would indeed stated it as 'well gee, if only you hadn't been foolish (note use of the word foolish) and used common sense (note wording used by members of this thread) you wouldn't have been raped'.

Get the point yet?

You do it here in your response:

the rapist would have simply grabbed a different woman walking home alone and putting herself at risk.

You measured blame out to the victim by pointing out she put herself at risk. Why did you feel the need to add those words to the sentence? Why was it the woman who put herself at risk and not the rapist who put her at risk simply by existing?

Blaming the victim is so ingrained to you that you don't even think about it, you just do it. And you, like the others, get upset when it is pointed out to you.

---

I also never said this advice is a form of common sense. I said that both "common sense" and "not taking risks" would lead to less rape instances in the women who follow that advice.

Except this isn't true. It is not true that 'not taking risks' will lead to less instances of rape.

---

compare it to the number of rapes where the girl has taken a taxi or walked with friends.

A serial rapist in my hometown was a cab driver. Another was a cop.

Most women are raped by someone they know, either a friend or an acquaintance.

[Edwardo Piet]

You go into hysterics and accuse her of blaming you? I'd bet not.

Depends entirely on how she says it. There are some versions of Cindy who would indeed stated it as 'well gee, if only you hadn't been foolish (note use of the word foolish) and used common sense (note wording used by members of this thread) you wouldn't have been raped'.

The fact it depends on 'how she says it' shows that you are making the appeal to emotion fallacy. Your 'argument' is emotional... not a real argument.

EvF

[Paul the Human]

Okay. I see. From my perspective, you seem to be so emotionally invested in this topic that you have lost all objectivity. I find myself in complete agreement with you in other threads, where you point out how irrational a theist is being, but when it comes to this one particular subject, you are just as irrational as they are.

Since I am not a rapist, nor someone that shifts blame to the victim, and I do not wish to be continually called one, I am stepping out of this "discussion" and will see you in another thread. One that doesn't deal with this subject.