Objectifying women

[Scented Nectar]

Excuse the general blanket statement about women objectifiying themselves and then complaining about it. What I am getting at is women, some, complain about objectification when women themselves are out objectifying themselves and, by extension, other women in general.

'Tis why I included the word 'stereotype' in my last post.

Ahhh, sounds like the ones who claim it is all a plot to keep women oppressed by the evil patriarchy. Under that theory, somehow, any woman who decides that she WANTS to do things that men also enjoy sexually, is a poor deluded victim. Connected to that, is the exceptions made for SOME things, like say a fashionable bathing suit. If a penis-bearing human shows any non-harmful pleasure at such a bathing suit, they are oppressing the woman wearing it.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm strongly anti-sexist, but I will no longer call myself a feminist. Too much of the feminist movement is still a reverse-sexist and self oppressing radical ideology. For most of the 80s, I was a feminazi (yeah, I get to use that word, cuz I was one, so there). When my traitorous clit decided it wanted to play with men again, I had to step back and take a hard look at the cult mentality I had gotten caught up in.

[tavarish]

traitorous clit

[Scented Nectar]

traitorous clit

It just wouldn't listen to what I thought was reason back then. That in turn made me take a long, hard look at my reasons for believing the extremes of the radical-lesbian-feminist ideology (found there weren't any good ones, just faith in what I'd been told). That in turn made me look for a long, hard... I'll stop before I digress.

[fr0d0]

Women are in a shit position. What would be a comparable position for a bloke? Someone bullied and made to feel inferior maybe. Then you have some other guys who volunteer to be bullied for money. Are they victims, victors of their situation, or abusers just taking advantage.

How does wimpy bloke feel about these benefiting and making it look like he maybe enjoys being bullied? If they do it and obviously like it/ benefit from it how come he complains?

[Eilonnwy]

I'm not going to bring up rape again, the argument has been beaten to death with fundamental differences too great to bring the discussion to a satisfying conclusion without emotions running high. I know I've gone off the handle a little bit myself, because I am passionate about the subject. Ultimately, I don't think anyone here hates women, and I'm going to leave it at that.

Dotard, you want to discuss the original topic of this thread so I will address that only as best I can.

When I made my original comment about "objectifying women" in the Miss USA thread way back when, it was a flippant comment directed more at certain attitudes about women in society, and not an attempt to judge the woman or people who enjoy these forms of entertainment.

Scented Nectar made an excellent point about feminism. There are certain attitudes within the feminist movement which are counterproductive to the ideal of feminism, which is equality. There is a faction within the feminist movement which defines feminism as choice. I, personally, agree with Choice Feminism, which essentially says that woman have the choice to be who they want. They can be a homemaker or a successful business woman. They can be a super model or a teacher. By trying to stifle the expression of woman in certain professions that in the past have been seen as negative or oppressive, only serves to continue to restrict women and shame them for doing something, only in a different way.

Now, I've brought up privilege before, I know some disagree with the notion of privilege, and there are some fundamental debates on certain privileges, but I think most of us can recognize that woman have been treated as property in the past and they had to fight for their right to vote, to dress provocatively, etc... Most of us have heard that if a man is caught sleeping around, he's congratulated. If a woman is caught sleeping around, she is a slut. These thoughts are pervasive of society, and both men and woman are guilty of doing the same thing.

I've been studying privilege lately, learning about privileges I do have and privileges I don't have. What's most revealing to me is when I look at the privileges I don't have, and realized that I thought such things were acceptable, and in someway would perpetuate the privilege myself. I'll give an example.

Here is a male privilege checklist. Please make sure you read the introduction which states important points, such as, suggesting these privileges in no way means men have an easy life and do not suffer from their own set of disadvantages. (I.e. the draft) Anyway, agree or disagree with some of the points made here, I think we can all at least recognize some of the classic attitudes towards woman that may favor men, regardless or whether there are reverse attitudes towards men. One such attitude:

10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.

12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I’m selfish for not staying at home.

13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.

I've done this. When Sarah Palin was nominated for VP, and it was revealed she just had a child, I had the attitude that she should be home with her child. It doesn't matter that her husband could care for it, we are ingrained with the idea that a child needs a mother, and that if a mother works while raising a child, it's called into question, but of course a father works and raises a child. Now, I dislike Sarah Palin, but I try to do so now on the basis of the ideologies she espouses that I fundamentally disagree with. I no longer concern myself with whether she can raise her son. That doesn't matter.

Now, to bring this back to objectifying women, there is another staple of attitudes toward women. Namely:

25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability or my gender conformity.

It's hard for me to appropriately explain my feelings on this point, because it's very emotionally driven. It has taking me a long time to feel comfortable with my body and as such I do like to wear certain clothing to show off what I like about it. I do it because I love the female body, and I like feeling comfortable with myself. I do love the attention I may get, but there have been occasions when me just having fun has been interpreted as "let's have sex", which can be a very uncomfortable situation. (On a side note, I'm not even talking about rape. There are many situations where sexual advances can be uncomfortable and a problem, but do not enter into the arena of rape, and that's what I'm focusing on here) Sometimes I wish I could wear what I want and not worry about sexual advances of some men, because I'm not interested. My flashy top is me having fun, and sure, you can look, but that doesn't mean you can touch. And I guess that would be the crux of the problem, for me. My problem about objectifying woman is not so much the idea of enjoying a woman's body as it's on display, but the behavior that it accompanies with some (note: not all) men (Hey and even some women) that it's an invitation to make sexual advances.

[Cego_Colher]

I had something early which I must not have posted about not wanting feminism to be all about females are better then me. and equality is good, but also people shouldn't say a man isn't masculine, because he likes to cook or sew or if he's a househusband and takes care of the kids and the wife makes the bacon. Well, really more of that "masculine" and "feminine" qualities/categories should be irrelevant. Most men probably won't want to, but I'm not a man so I'm just going off of stereotypes-- but if only a few want to be househusbands, people shouldn't make fun. also, woman should have to sign up for the draft. (or there shouldn't be drafts ever, but I'm pretty sure that might not work out.) not of course that I'd want to be drafted, but that would increase equalness, I think.

If I'm wearing revealing clothes and someone says something or stares at me too long I usually get upset and wonder why I was wearing it in the first place. (I have a habit of yelling at my friends if they look at me too long and looking like they are(n't) thinking about it. which is kinda hypocritical of me.) I was at a beach like a month ago with my boyfriend and he kept taking pictures of me and put them all on facebook. He even put the ones were you can see my gut up, but I guess that's kinda alright. People can see that I have flaws too, for those of my friends that say that I'm skinnier then them and prettier and blah-de-da. Besides how can they really tell I'm usually wearing loose clothes?

But me and my man-clothes are going to go sew today.

[The Omnissiunt One]

@Eilonnwy

This was interesting; it made me realise just how deeply ingrained our prejudices about the roles of men and women are. Of course, with regards to women wearing sexy clothes, it can mean different things from person to person. Some women might well be trying to attract sexual advances, or at least might not mind them. Others, like you, Eilonnwy, don't want men coming onto them (in the flirting sense, not... the other sense. Though presumably they wouldn't want them to do that, either). It makes me think that life would be so much easier if there were an official, universally recognised guide to sexual relationships. Crop top and mini skirt= I'm available and willing. Anything else would mean 'Look but don't touch.'

[Eilonnwy]

This was interesting; it made me realise just how deeply ingrained our prejudices about the roles of men and women are. Of course, with regards to women wearing sexy clothes, it can mean different things from person to person.

True, but that's why it's so important to listen to what a woman says and not just assume. Despite my own personal preferences, there are woman who enjoy casual sex, and I don't look down on them for it. I think there are other ways to convey to someone what your intentions are.

Some women might well be trying to attract sexual advances, or at least might not mind them. Others, like you, Eilonnwy, don't want men coming onto them (in the flirting sense, not... the other sense. Though presumably they wouldn't want them to do that, either). It makes me think that life would be so much easier if there were an official, universally recognised guide to sexual relationships. Crop top and mini skirt= I'm available and willing. Anything else would mean 'Look but don't touch.'

I am guilty of being a terrible flirt, because it's fun, and I enjoy it, and I think the men I do it with have fun too. But usually it's with people who know me and get the fact that I'm like just like that. I don't think clothes should be an indicator of what your intentions are, but more your words and your actions. I think there are probably other better ways to let someone know they're up for a night of fun. I mean, what harm does it do to just be upfront about it, man or woman? If you get turned down, no harm no fowl. But if you work of off vague indicators, you can end up misinterpreting and making a mistake that could lead to far more severe consequences. Especially in situations where alcohol and drugs are a factor.

[Scented Nectar]

TOO, no matter what the clothes or intentions regarding the casualness of sex being looked for, I think any touching should always wait for when it's clear the woman wants it. Even the seeker of the most casual "don't-even-know-his-name" sex doesn't want just anyone touching and groping her, only whoever it is she decides to have sex with that night.

Eilonnwy, I totally agree that being upfront verbally is a good thing. It really does prevent misinterpretations.

[In This Mind]

TOO, no matter what the clothes or intentions regarding the casualness of sex being looked for, I think any touching should always wait for when it's clear the woman wants it. Even the seeker of the most casual "don't-even-know-his-name" sex doesn't want just anyone touching and groping her, only whoever it is she decides to have sex with that night.

Which is why acting like the clothing matters is pure victim blaming. Glad you finally came around. Now if only the rest of the pricks would.