Objectifying women

[Cego_Colher]

The only 'precaution' that actually decreases risk is educating people against victim blaming.

Shouldn't we also make sure that we "educate men on what consent is, sexual harassment, etc..." ?

[Eilonnwy]

The only 'precaution' that actually decreases risk is educating people against victim blaming.

Shouldn't we also make sure that we "educate men on what consent is, sexual harassment, etc..." ?

That's what ITM meant, and has said explicitly in a previous post. Victim blaming is inherently linked with consent issues and sexual harassment.

[Godhead]

Eilonnwy -

I'm sorry but you're reading into my words again. I'm not saying that every moment of someone's life has to be assessed for anything. As far as blame, I'm not blaming anyone but the rapist, however, if you're not careful, you're taking a risk, and if you do that knowingly, you're a fool even if you don't get raped. To clarify, this isn't so much about what constitutes good advice for avoiding being raped, as we all have different ideas about that, this is more about one's attitude. If you go out and you don't give any thought to the matter, you're being foolish. Women are in an unfortunate position, but, to use a common phrase, it's a cross that you simply have to bear. It's your responsibility to look after yourself. A rapist will rape, sooner or later. Being careful won't change them, but it will minimise your chances of being the one that they rape. If you abdicate your responsibility to look after yourself, and with a bit of bad luck, sooner or later you'll run into one, in the wrong place, at the wrong time, in the wrong circumstances.

[Eilonnwy]

Eilonnwy -

I'm sorry but you're reading into my words again. I'm not saying that every moment of someone's life has to be assessed for anything. As far as blame, I'm not blaming anyone but the rapist, however, if you're not careful, you're taking a risk, and if you do that knowingly, you're a fool even if you don't get raped. To clarify, this isn't so much about what constitutes good advice for avoiding being raped, as we all have different ideas about that, this is more about one's attitude. If you go out and you don't give any thought to the matter, you're being foolish. Women are in an unfortunate position, but, to use a common phrase, it's a cross that you simply have to bear. It's your responsibility to look after yourself. A rapist will rape, sooner or later. Being careful won't change them, but it will minimise your chances of being the one that they rape. If you abdicate your responsibility to look after yourself, and with a bit of bad luck, sooner or later you'll run into one, in the wrong place, at the wrong time, in the wrong circumstances.

The part I bolded is where you're victim blaming, but I have repeated myself too many times on the issue. I've explained it every which angle I can to try and make you see.

I'm going to be blunt here, but it has to be said. The moment you assume it's a woman's responsibility to cover herself or not walk alone to avoid rape, you're feeding into rape culture and victim blaming. When you put the focus on what the woman does instead of the people who perpetrate the crime, you are victim blaming. If you ignore the evidence that shows women are mostly raped by people they know, that pulled off the street rape is the rarest form of rape, you're victim blaming. If you don't put the onus on educating people about victim blaming, consent issues, what constitutes sexual harassment, you're buried so deep in rape culture you can't get yourself out.

Also, I'm going to let you in on something, and I've been hinting at it, IHM has been a little more blunt about it, but the reason you cannot see that "putting responsibility on a woman to wear modest clothing, to not walk around alone = victim blaming" and you think that it's common sense, and the logic and evidence we have provided won't let you get it, that wall, so tiny and barely perceptible, is sexism.

And that's why we cannot get through to you, because sexism is not based on logic, but attitudes against women perpetuated for centuries, especially by religion. Extreme examples are in places like Saudi Arabia, but just because you can be appalled at the idea of lashing a woman for being gang raped doesn't mean you can't have little seeds of sexism within your attitude and approach to rape.

Prejudice is largely invisible in this day in age. It's hidden in the little racist jokes we say, it's hidden in the attitude of women being foolish for wearing sexy clothing. Prejudice is not okay, and we all know that, and I don't think anyone here wants to be prejudice. We tell ourselves we agree black people are equal, and women deserve equal pay, so the little things that underly sexism are hidden and propagated without recognizing them for what they are. Hidden prejudice is the idea that you cannot be racist because you have a black friend.

I'm sure some of you may think I'm being insulting by claiming sexism, maybe even think I'm a bitch for it. "Oh there she goes claiming the sexism card!" But after 40+ pages of arguing this topic and not budging one bit, it's as clear as day. It's uncomfortable to think that after all the positive things we may think about women that we could still have contempt for them underneath. And you know what's even more troubling, is that women tend to be their own worst enemy in this. They accept the "well intentioned advice" and they can slut shame worse than any man, and still feel like an enlightened and empowered woman. I've harbored these attitudes myself, and I'm extremely thankful I can see past my own sexism to work towards it and fix it, because as long as people think they can blame a victim, rape won't go away. People will still be victims and be blamed for it.

I hope something I've said has cracked a chip in someone's armor and maybe eventually you'll get it. Maybe that day will come when you're a victim or someone you love is a victim and you realize there was nothing they could have done to stop it.

Do I think people who harbor sexist attitudes are terrible people? Nope. But as long as you have those attitudes, you'll never get it. As long as you put the onus on what women do, say they have crosses to bear without recognizing that you must put the onus on the people who commit the crimes, that the best way to reduce the risk of rape is to educate men about these issues, women will constantly be at risk. And that is truly a crime.

Victim blaming has to stop. No ifs, ands or buts. Only a rapist can rape. Walking alone does not rape you, alcohol does not rape you, being beautiful does not rape you. Rapists rape. Apply the "True... but, if you do this and that..." argument to terrorism.

"Yeah, it's true terrorism is by terrorists BUT you have to be smart about it. Don't use airplanes to get anywhere."
"Don't use any sort of public transportation."
"Don't go in high buildings."
"Don't go to countries that are known to have terrorists."

Yeah, and if you just follow these simple steps, terrorism will NEVER happen to you!

http://scarletmoth.xanga.com/726748148/d...e-culture/

[Godhead]

Eilonnwy -

You're still doing it, you're reading into my words things which I'm not saying. Here's a list of what I'm not saying but which you've assumed :

I'm not saying that the focus should be on what the woman does instead of what the rapist does. What I am saying however is that what the woman does deserves focus.
I'm not saying that people shouldn't be educated about any of this, far from it.
I'm not saying that I have contempt for women, I don't.

What you appear to be doing is coming into this discussion with loads of semantic baggage and a host of deeply ingrained assumptions about what people mean by what they say, and then laying it all out, pointing at it, and saying "that's you, that is". Not so. You have the feeling that you're being very perceptive about weeding out certain negative attitudes towards women when actually you're misunderstanding, to an astonishing degree, what I and others are saying. I'll try again. Try to take in what I'm saying, and take it for what it is, and try not to let my words lead you down the path of assumptions in which you find yourself.

Every single person is responsible for their life. Even if something is not your fault, you're responsible for doing your best to prevent bad things happening to you. If it's easy, it's easy, if it's hard, it's hard, but it's always your responsibility to try. You can't live your whole life just hoping that bad people won't do bad things to you. You can sit there talking about how it's the rapist who's in the wrong and not the victim, and despite being absolutely correct, you may still get raped if you are careless. I'm not even particularly interested in what constitutes the correct way to be careful, and what minimises risk or what doesn't, since that is not my issue. My issue is simply that if you, as a woman, do not go out of your way to make some kind of risk assessment (and it doesn't matter what it is, or even if you get it all wrong) and take whatever measures you feel will minimise the risk, you're a fool. By consciously going out of your way to neglect your own safety, you're being irresponsible towards yourself. Life isn't fair, but that's no reason to throw your hands in the air and stubbornly focus on nothing but the rapist who is in the wrong. That's how children think, and it's what makes them childish. No one is saying that anyone deserves to be raped, or that rapists aren't in the wrong. But what I and others are saying is that by focussing away from your responsibility for your safety, you're being irresponsible. Who cares about the rapist being in the wrong if all you're going to do is go out without any thought whatsoever about your safety, and if you get raped, say look, see, he's in the wrong, look at me, I'm a victim. In attempting to label what I'm saying as victim blaming and completely misconstruing my words, you've completely overlooked the fact that you have a victim mentality. People with a victim mentality focus away from their responsibility. Ironically, in one of the sentences in your post in which you misunderstand what I'm saying, you in fact acknowledge that you have a responsibility. Here's what you said : "When you put the focus on what the woman does instead of the people who perpetrate the crime, you are victim blaming". To which I'd say : When you put the focus on what the rapist does instead of what you do, you are a professional victim.

I honestly don't think you're going to understand any of what I've just said.

[Eilonnwy]

When you put the focus on what the rapist does instead of what you do, you are a professional victim.

Because defending victims is being a professional victim. Rape culture at it's finest.

[Godhead]

Eilonnwy -

Defending victims is one thing, and supporting a victim mentality is another. They're not the same thing. Just to clarify, do you acknowledge that victim mentality even exists? If so, what would constitute a victim mentality?

[In This Mind]

When you put the focus on what the rapist does instead of what you do, you are a professional victim.

Because defending victims is being a professional victim. Rape culture at it's finest.

Did he really say that? Did he actually say that blaming the rapist for raping is a victim mentality?

Wow.

That's some fucked up shit right there.

[Eilonnwy]

Victim mentality is when you blame others for all your problems, and constantly search out ways to feel aggrieved and not take personal responsibility.

That is not the same as being a victim. I'm advocating that when someone is a victim of rape, you blame the person responsible, instead of looking for ways to blame them.

Victim blaming and victim mentality are two completely separate issues, and you should not conflate the two, but I'm sure you will anyway.

[Eilonnwy]

Did he really say that? Did he actually say that blaming the rapist for raping is a victim mentality?

Wow.

That's some fucked up shit right there.

God forbid we blame the people responsible! You don't want a victim to feel wronged, because wouldn't that just be terrible.