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Well that was interesting.
#1
Well that was interesting.
I've posted this on another forum as well but I thought it was interesting.

During lunch with two colleges of mine, one a Muslim, one an atheist like me, we got to talk about the results of the election and how glad we all were that Sarah Palin didn't get to become VP so all went fine. The Muslim girl said that she was so glad that black Americans now finally have a president for the first time. Then I said that there were 2 items that did sadden me though. These formerly oppressed men and women that voted Obama into office also overwhelmingly voted in favour of proposition 8, and even worse, the proposition that no people unless married were eligible to adopt in a certain state (I forgot which one).

Then she immediately went of into a rant about that being totally fair and how gays (and she used a different term) should not be able to marry and adopt. Then I replied that the second law also means no single man or woman can adopt even if he or she would have the means and love to support a child and get the child to grow up in a stable and loving environment.

Then she went on that "those people either go to work or raise children, they cant do both". So I asked "how do you know this?". She said well in most cases it would be problematic. So I asked well what about the cases where it wouldn't be a problem, since the law also excludes those people. Then she went to the "okay maybe not everyone but gays shouldn't marry" tangent.

Then I said "well what if you meet a nice Dutch guy and you want to marry, but some racist bigot in power has a law stating that interracial marriages are banned, would that be fair? Would you not protest that? How is your relationship with another person anyone's business but your own?"

Then she went down a peg and said "Well I don't care what other people do as long as they don't bother me." To which I replied, "Yes but if you had the choice like the Americans had in proposition 8 you would have voted in favour of that even though you now said you don't care".

At that point she began to realize that she had backed herself into a corner and just let the argument slide. When we went to the kitchen to put our dishes in the washer she turned around and said:

"I never realized I was that conservative before."

That had me smiling, I must admit.
Best regards,
Leo van Miert
Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall --Torque is how far you take the wall with you
Pastafarian
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#2
RE: Well that was interesting.
Hopefully you've made here really think. It just goes to show how talking to others and challenging things can make a difference. I've already dropped the Christian 'label' due to lots of discussions on here. I'm not saying I reject it outright, but I know I don't believe it enough to lay claim to it anymore.
"The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility"

Albert Einstein
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#3
RE: Well that was interesting.
To make her think about her position was my intention and I guess the message came across, even faster than I had bargained for. I'm fine with anyone's religion but when it impairs critical thinking about issues affecting others that is where I draw the line. She is one of the nicest persons I know so I was a little surprised with the hard line she drew in the beginning of the discussion. I couldn't help but wonder if it was the doctrine homophobia talking or her talking.

As for you dropping the label, all I can say is keep thinking, in the end it is all down to your belief and nothing we do or say can make that decision for you. I'm glad you accept that Christianity might be wrong even though you cannot commit to it (yet).

Atheism doesn't supply you any promise, no easy answers, no comfort. Just the stone cold hard truth that we do not believe in this notion of gods.
Best regards,
Leo van Miert
Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall --Torque is how far you take the wall with you
Pastafarian
Reply
#4
RE: Well that was interesting.
(December 9, 2008 at 3:51 pm)leo-rcc Wrote: To make her think about her position was my intention and I guess the message came across, even faster than I had bargained for. I'm fine with anyone's religion but when it impairs critical thinking about issues affecting others that is where I draw the line. She is one of the nicest persons I know so I was a little surprised with the hard line she drew in the beginning of the discussion. I couldn't help but wonder if it was the doctrine homophobia talking or her talking.

What, though, are you actually doing? Do you want people with religious beliefs against homosexuality to change thier position or just their politics?
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#5
RE: Well that was interesting.
Right now I settle for their politics.
Best regards,
Leo van Miert
Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall --Torque is how far you take the wall with you
Pastafarian
Reply
#6
RE: Well that was interesting.
(December 9, 2008 at 5:12 pm)leo-rcc Wrote: Right now I settle for their politics.

Right now you would settle for their politics . . . and later work on their beliefs and rights to believe?
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#7
RE: Well that was interesting.
They got every right to believe whatever they want. I want them to work on their own beliefs.
Best regards,
Leo van Miert
Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall --Torque is how far you take the wall with you
Pastafarian
Reply
#8
RE: Well that was interesting.
(December 9, 2008 at 5:20 pm)leo-rcc Wrote: They got every right to believe whatever they want. I want them to work on their own beliefs.

Work on their own beliefs?
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#9
RE: Well that was interesting.
(December 9, 2008 at 3:18 pm)CoxRox Wrote: Hopefully you've made here really think. It just goes to show how talking to others and challenging things can make a difference. I've already dropped the Christian 'label' due to lots of discussions on here. I'm not saying I reject it outright, but I know I don't believe it enough to lay claim to it anymore.

Now this is why I admire you. You rethink everything from other points and views and you re-evaluate your perceptions.
Questioning your own views is always a good thing. I did with atheism....in fact I still do. Even though I'm a very strong atheist.

If I never questioned anything I would be closed minded. I even once wondered if there was a god. Didn't take long really due to lack of evidence.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.

Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.

You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
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#10
RE: Well that was interesting.
Change in a religion comes from the believers themselves. That's how protestants split from Catholicism, someone sees how their religion is flawed to some extend and start a movement to correct it. It has happened in Christianity, I think the same will happen in Islam. All it takes is enough time.
Best regards,
Leo van Miert
Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall --Torque is how far you take the wall with you
Pastafarian
Reply



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