refuting misconceptions:1-women in Islam

[AtheistPhil]

you guys are so smart how would 4 persons see a woman having sex after she is pregnant loool

She could get pregnant by fucking in public, no need to be pregnant already.

[Scented Nectar]

In some cases that I've read about, unwed pregnancy was used as the proof the girl was guilty of sex, punishable by lashes and/or death. Nothing about it needing to be public. And many times this was the result of rapes that were not considered by the theocrats as rapes for illogical ridiculous reasons.

[mo3taz3nbar]

you guys are so smart how would 4 persons see a woman having sex after she is pregnant loool

She could get pregnant by fucking in public, no need to be pregnant already.

if she is saw by 4 persons she will be punished before being pregnant they will not wait for 2 or 3 months.there can be variability according to the law of the country

[AtheistPhil]

you guys are so smart how would 4 persons see a woman having sex after she is pregnant loool

She could get pregnant by fucking in public, no need to be pregnant already.

if she is saw by 4 persons she will be punished before being pregnant they will not wait for 2 or 3 months.there can be variability according to the law of the country

Pregnancy begins right after conception (or maybe a few hours later), when the egg is fertilized the foetus is created. So if you stone the couple without waiting to check if the woman is pregnant or not you might kill a foetus too.Results: abortion + double manslaughter, woop dee doo !

[mo3taz3nbar]

Pregnancy begins right after conception (or maybe a few hours later), when the egg is fertilized the foetus is created. So if you stone the couple without waiting to check if the woman is pregnant or not you might kill a foetus too.Results: abortion + double manslaughter, woop dee doo !

you cant apply any punishment on a pregnant woman so they must be sure that she is not pregnant(all this depends on the ruler and the muslim scholars to decide how would they know)
you are trying to get an error in this punishment while the main thing is that if you apply this punishment there will not be millions killed every year as the babies killed in abortion ONLY(check also how many are killed by aids every year) i have never in my life heard about stonning in the history of islam except for a couple of times(but in fact i heard a lot about finding dead babies in the street or in the garbage these days) and as i mentioned before this punishment is to stop the wrong act not to stone people if you are born in a country that apply this you will never do it infront of 4 persons

[AtheistPhil]

i think you are right its not that clear in the translation but the arabic word used is really clear thats why i adviced you if you have anything you want to ask i can clarify as its the first time i notice that there is some words not clear in the translation as in arabic and i will ask for you for the best translation as my english is my second language so i may not be able to defirintiate complicated words.
I'm just asking for the explanation of the verse 2:223, and maybe the end of 2:222, in their authentic arabic language, but written in english of course :p, with a commentary on the meaning of the words. Please And by the way, english is also my second language (well third in theory, but second in practice).

[quote='mo3taz3nbar' pid='74390' dateline='1276123709']

because you can use birth control, and you can still force the two people to marry and have the child if there is one conceived outside of marriage. And abortions happens in married couples too!
In any case stoning both of them is certainly not a solution and it's barbaric!

the stoning is for the already married.and again for doing it in public you are not just doing that you are ruining the society by motivating people to do like that.

This shows that the whole abortion and AIDS argument to justify the stoning is completely false. Because an unmarried couple doing the same thing will ONLY get 80 lashes. But abortions happens much more in unmarried couple (from your link on abortion) and AIDS is spreading much more because of extra marital sex or outside marriage. The married couple can fuck in their home or in public, in both cases they will get an abortion if they don't want the child and the only spread of AIDS possible is between the two of them, the place of the fucking is irrelevant. So all you're doing is punishing public indecency by death for the married and 80 lashes for the unmarried. First this is extremely inegalitarian (and even backwards because unmarried sex is also a crime so it should be punished more severely if done in public than married sex in public), why not making 120 lashes for married couples ? It would be the same kind of punishment at least.

You're trying to tell me that stoning people for an action that could have lead (in not even 1% of the times) to a situation where a decision concerning the life of a foetus has to be made is the right thing to do ?

if you are born in a country that apply that believe me you will never do it and if you did it you will be sure not to be seen by 4 persons its that easy.

So you're acknowledging that it won't entirely stop people from fucking in public, so what's the point of KILLING a happily married couple for that ??? Why not a fine or jail. Those punishment are much more respectful of human life and dignity, and you'll get the same results ! And why a public stoning ??? this is a show of gratuitous sadistic violence in public ! How can one teach children that this is not only ok, but the right thing to do ??? you're encouraging violent remorseless behavior in children by doing that !

dont talk about killing a child that easy and its not about the 1% propability there are millions of babies killed because of that and again an agressive punishment is not to punish people its more like to stop them from doing ugly thing like killing babies if ther is a possibility to get a baby killed i would do anything to stop that

It has been proven that capital punishment does not stop people from killing each other, so it won't stop desperate poor people who can't afford to raise another child from having an abortion. This is the main argument for capital punishment: the fear! And you want to apply that to a whole lot of fellonies other than murder. It won't stop it, it will just let people live in fear, in a society which teaches them that revenge and manslaughter are righteous when done by the authorities.
If you're against abortion, you can punish it with jail if you want, it would be more ethical. But if you want to realy reduce abortions you need to educate people on birth control and sex.

of course i will not but you must believe that your ethics is based in what you are used to and there is a lot of things ignored in the west which is so bad like some people see that porn movies is ok for the women we see it as its sooo humilating so its not about ethics as its about the results you may get by doing something which is really very ugly i just mentioned abortion but there are many other things like aids for example believe me the results is so more bad.

Porn is ethical because no one forces a woman to do it. Women have the right to do whatever they want with their body as long as it doesn't infringe on other people's rights.

thats why there is agressive punishment for doing this in public as you are not just doing a wrong thing but you are motivating others to do like you

That's why you need to punish it, but why not just a very long jail sentence ? How could one be ok with violent public killing as a punishment (and even more for public indecency) ???

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you cant apply any punishment on a pregnant woman so they must be sure that she is not pregnant(all this depends on the ruler and the muslim scholars to decide how would they know)

ok

you are trying to get an error in this punishment while the main thing is that if you apply this punishment there will not be millions killed every year as the babies killed in abortion ONLY(check also how many are killed by aids every year) i have never in my life heard about stonning in the history of islam except for a couple of times

But the Sunnah permits it.

(but in fact i heard a lot about finding dead babies in the street or in the garbage these days) and as i mentioned before this punishment is to stop the wrong act not to stone people if you are born in a country that apply this you will never do it infront of 4 persons

dead babies means no abortion done. Criminalizing abortions won't stop people from killing and abandonning their newborn.

and by the way: a foetus is not a child.

[mo3taz3nbar]

This shows that the whole abortion and AIDS argument to justify the stoning is completely false. Because an unmarried couple doing the same thing will ONLY get 80 lashes. But abortions happens much more in unmarried couple (from your link on abortion) and AIDS is spreading much more because of extra marital sex or outside marriage.

am talking about both punishments. the lashes is only taking the considiration of having a moment of weakness but the married ones are not the same.

The married couple can fuck in their home or in public, in both cases they will get an abortion if they don't want the child and the only spread of AIDS possible is between the two of them, the place of the fucking is irrelevant. So all you're doing is punishing public indecency by death for the married and 80 lashes for the unmarried. First this is extremely inegalitarian (and even backwards because unmarried sex is also a crime so it should be punished more severely if done in public than married sex in public), why not making 120 lashes for married couples ? It would be the same kind of punishment at least.

we are not talking here for something that will stop everyone from doing the bad thing you can never do that you are just lowering it to the least and if you are doing something bad you will be punished by god but you must not spread the disease in the society and you dont consider other results you might get.what about a baby grow thinking that this is his father but in fact he is not and what if they discovered later its so complicated than you think

So you're acknowledging that it won't entirely stop people from fucking in public, so what's the point of KILLING a happily married couple for that ??? Why not a fine or jail. Those punishment are much more respectful of human life and dignity, and you'll get the same results ! And why a public stoning ??? this is a show of gratuitous sadistic violence in public ! How can one teach children that this is not only ok, but the right thing to do ??? you're encouraging violent remorseless behavior in children by doing that !

it will decrease it to the least and of course its better than making it ok with no punishment.and what about the happily married?lol. again it depends on the ruler and the scholars if they see anything should or should not be done as long as it doesnt contradict the reasons of putting that punishment

It has been proven that capital punishment does not stop people from killing each other, so it won't stop desperate poor people who can't afford to raise another child from having an abortion. This is the main argument for capital punishment: the fear! And you want to apply that to a whole lot of fellonies other than murder. It won't stop it, it will just let people live in fear, in a society which teaches them that revenge and manslaughter are righteous when done by the authorities.
If you're against abortion, you can punish it with jail if you want, it would be more ethical. But if you want to realy reduce abortions you need to educate people on birth control and sex.

they are doing that everywhere tell me about the results you cant let something like abortion to human mistake its a very big thing

Porn is ethical because no one forces a woman to do it. Women have the right to do whatever they want with their body as long as it doesn't infringe on other people's rights.

its ethical because you are used to it but offering someone money to do humilating things is a kind of forcing and you can search for the bad effect of watching or doing porn its a direct reason for increasing rape and incest and sex diseases and first of all it make you look to women as objects of lust http://www.porn-free.org/porn_is_bad.htm

But the Sunnah permits it.

sunnah permits it not to be done but to stop people from doing it and what i was saying is a prove that an agressive punishment prevent from a much more bigger crime
dead babies means no abortion done. Criminalizing abortions won't stop people from killing and abandonning their newborn.

that is exceptions but that can be controlled but the main reason for abortion is sex outside marriage and you know that

and by the way: a foetus is not a child.

lool do you want to get in arguing when the foetus become alive?????

[Scented Nectar]

Mo, you are a sexually repressed fool. Porn does NOT increase rape, incest or disease. No valid study has ever shown that. If anything it helps prevent some sex harms. Here's how.

In porn, there are many categories. Most are about safe, nonharmful acts between consenting adults. Most of us are very lucky in that our desires are for these safe acts. However, some people get aroused from things that would be harmful if they really did them, like rape and incest. If these people are good people, they will know that they must not carry out their desires because it would cause harm.

For these people, if they view porn that pretends (it is acting like in movies for the story they present) to be about rape or incest, then each time they use the porn for relief, it prevents an incident of real life rape or incest from happening.

If the porn industry is illegal, then there is nothing to prevent women from being forced into it. But if it's legal, they will have the same protections and rights as any other type of worker.

No one should be forced into any type of job, including porn or hooking. However, if someone voluntarily and informedly enters into such work, it's her or his choice, and it's not up to you to tell them whether they find it humiliating or not. Do you ask house maids whether they find scrubbing other people's toilets humiliating? Maybe that's more humiliating than a job making lots of money in porn.

And watching it is never humiliating. If it were, the person simply would not be watching. For YOU, it's humiliating, so you should never watch it. But don't tell others what to do when no harm is caused (and perhaps some good IS caused).

And how on earth do you catch a disease from porn?????? Are we talking tennis elbow or something? Carpal tunnel syndrome? Anything that can't be solved by using the other hand? Hahahahah

[tavarish]

Scented Nectar, I had a discussion at length with one of our resident nutjobs, Pippy about the pros and cons of porn - it's in the News/Activism section under the title "Smut for Smut".

I'm actually for fucking in public. It's a lot of fun.

By the way, it's funny that Mo says porn makes you look at women as objects of lust, when Islamic law is set up to cover up women because men can't control themselves. Also, how many of your four permanent wives have you collected thus far?

I went on to the site he proposed, and it's a bunch of fucking hogwash. Porn leads to sexual crimes? Don't you think the rate of sexual assault would be much fucking higher if that were true? It also has a lot of irrelevant points, such as it makes you lie and makes you spiritually unclean. I honestly don't give a fuck about that. I like porn, I enjoy pleasuring myself, I enjoy pleasuring my partner, and I enjoy it when she pleasures me, specifically in a way that I've never experienced before. I don't see a harm in that, especially not if some sexually repressed Christian tells me kittens die because I masturbate.

[mo3taz3nbar]

loool ok guys am sorry but that is the truth do some search