What is the point of Atheist Activism?

[theophilus]

This country is based on secular principals, which means it does not endorse one religion over another.

The US was not founded on Christian principles but it was founded on theism. The Declaration of Independence says, "All men are created equal and are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights." Having a national day of prayer doesn't violate our principles as long as we aren't told to pray to a specific god or in a specific manner.

It is if you consider what reasoning lies behind the denial of gays getting married.

The real issue concerning gay marriage is not whether gays should have the right to marry but what constitutes marriage. The belief that marriage is between a man and a woman is not an exclusively Christian idea but has always been the norm in all cultures and religions. If two people of the same sex want to live together as if they are married there is no law prohibiting them from doing so but they don't have the right to demand that the government to approve their relationship. (Of course they are violating God's laws and will have to answer to him but that isn't anything the government should get involved in.)

I feel similarly about hate crime legislation. Don't support it on the grounds that it essentially legislates thoughts and I think government has no business doing so.

I agree with you completely on this issue but I suspect my reasons for doing so are different from yours. The Bible teaches that only God has the right to judge someone's motives so the government is usurping a right that belongs to God.

[Minimalist]

The Declaration of Independence says, "All men are created equal and are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights."

The Declaration of Independence did not establish the US government.

The Constitution established the government and, as noted below:

http://www.usconstitution.net/constnot.html#god

It has often been seen on the Internet that to find God in the Constitution, all one has to do is read it, and see how often the Framers used the words "God," or "Creator," "Jesus," or "Lord." Except for one notable instance, however, none of these words ever appears in the Constitution, neither the original nor in any of the Amendments. The notable exception is found in the Signatory section, where the date is written thusly: "Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven". The use of the word "Lord" here is not a religious reference, however. This was a common way of expressing the date, in both religious and secular contexts. This lack of any these words does not mean that the Framers were not spiritual people, any more than the use of the word Lord means that they were. What this lack of these words is expositive of is not a love for or disdain for religion, but the feeling that the new government should not involve itself in matters of religion. In fact, the original Constitution bars any religious test to hold any federal office in the United States.

We got along fine without your notions of "god."

[Eilonnwy]

The US was not founded on Christian principles but it was founded on theism. The Declaration of Independence says, "All men are created equal and are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights." Having a national day of prayer doesn't violate our principles as long as we aren't told to pray to a specific god or in a specific manner.

The Declaration of Independence is not the part of the US Government, it was a colonial document. You have to do better than that if you want to back up your claim. The Constitution clearly states it's a document based on people. Hence, "We the people". The first amendment lays the groundwork for separation of Church and state by letting people be free to worship, but not governing that worship. Lastly, read the Treaty of Tripoli

Here, I'll quote the relevant bit.

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Signed by the president, ratified by congress.

As for the National Day of Prayer, it's simple. Not everyone believes in God, not even some religious types. By endorsing a day of prayer to "God" you are excluding a vast number of people who either don't believe, believe in Gods (notice the S). People can believe and pray or not believe and not prayer however and whenever they want. The Government should have no say, whatsoever.

The real issue concerning gay marriage is not whether gays should have the right to marry but what constitutes marriage. The belief that marriage is between a man and a woman is not an exclusively Christian idea but has always been the norm in all cultures and religions. If two people of the same sex want to live together as if they are married there is no law prohibiting them from doing so but they don't have the right to demand that the government to approve their relationship. (Of course they are violating God's laws and will have to answer to him but that isn't anything the government should get involved in.)

Marriage used to be a contract, selling off the woman to a man. Marriage used to be a government thing and had nothing to with religion. Marriage between whites and blacks used to be illegal. The "tradition" argument is pathetic at best. Tradition doesn't give you the right to trample on human rights. Why not bring slavery back, hell, it was "tradition". e_e

I agree with you completely on this issue but I suspect my reasons for doing so are different from yours. The Bible teaches that only God has the right to judge someone's motives so the government is usurping a right that belongs to God.

Yeah, I think sin is bullshit.

[Autumnlicious]

I agree with you completely on this issue but I suspect my reasons for doing so are different from yours. The Bible teaches that only God has the right to judge someone's motives so the government is usurping a right that belongs to God.

Of course! It all makes sense!

We should let all those people in prison go! After all, only God has the right to judge, motives and everything else.

[Scented Nectar]

Having a national day of prayer doesn't violate our principles as long as we aren't told to pray to a specific god or in a specific manner.

What about if someone's god thinks that prayer is the Sin of Sycophants, and is greatly offended by the promotion of prayer?

Why do you assume that a religion must use prayer at all? Sure, many do, but what about deists and minority religions that don't believe that their gods require prayer? They believe in a creator, but who are you to tell them they must pray to the creator they believe in?

Prayer IS a specific manner of creator-belief.

[Minimalist]

Having a national day of prayer doesn't violate our principles

A national day of jerking off would accomplish more.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

A national day of jerking off would accomplish more.

Not sure about hat Min.I think it might be a bit redundant.

What about 'snot* a fundy day' ?


*'snot' Aussie slang for contents of nasal passage AND to punch. It need not be a king hit. (KO)

[theophilus]

The Declaration of Independence is not the part of the US Government, it was a colonial document.

It was the Declaration which gave us our freedom to establish a government and many of the same people were involved with writing both documents. The actions of the government after the Constitution came into effect show that they believed that we were founded on a belief in God.

The first amendment lays the groundwork for separation of Church and state by letting people be free to worship, but not governing that worship.

But it still assumed that people would want to worship God.

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion

That is exactly what I said in my post. But it doesn't contradict my statement that this country was founded on the belief that there is a God.

As for the National Day of Prayer, it's simple. Not everyone believes in God, not even some religious types. By endorsing a day of prayer to "God" you are excluding a vast number of people who either don't believe, believe in Gods (notice the S). People can believe and pray or not believe and not prayer however and whenever they want. The Government should have no say, whatsoever.

If the government isn't allowed to have a national day of prayer because some of its citizens are atheists, isn't that in effect making atheism an official religion?

Marriage used to be a contract, selling off the woman to a man. Marriage used to be a government thing and had nothing to with religion. Marriage between whites and blacks used to be illegal.

There have been a lot of bad laws connected with marriage but that doesn't change the fact that marriage has always been a relationship between a man and a woman.

[Minimalist]

It was the Declaration which gave us our freedom to establish a government

Sheer nonsense. It was victory in the Revolutionary War (aided by both France and British stupidity) that gave us the ability to establish a government.

Long after the Declaration was written it was Thomas Paine who set the cause back on track after the disasters of 1776. Surely you remember Thomas Paine?

Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon that the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and for my own part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel.
-- Thomas Paine

[paintpooper]

Why doesn't anyway ever just say. WHO CARES what the this nation was founded on???? This country was founded on the belief that there is a god? Who cares... we also believed the negro to be a lesser species, and that the earth was flat, and 6000 years old, and that leeches cured sickness, or draining the blood of someone fixes them. We can and do change. If this nation was founded on the flying spaghetti monster you would support that... even if you found out it was not real, just because the founders said so?