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Refuting misconceptions:3-Authenticity and preservation of the Quran
#1
Refuting misconceptions:3-Authenticity and preservation of the Quran
1-it says in the Quran it will be preserved:

If any changes happened you would have seen a lot of muslim in this time leaving islam as it would be a prove that the Quran is not a revelation from god but that never happened but in fact islam in this time was increasing

2- during muhammed(pbuh)life:

- memorization
It’s a unique thing in islam that people use to memorize all of it as all muslims pray 5 times a day(at least) rectating some of the Quran in the prayer loudly infront of a lot of the muslims imagine this happening for 23 years by thousands of muslims and also in their prayers alone at night(some of them use to pray for 3 or 4 hours at night)
-annual review
Review of the entire Quran in ramadan by the people memorizing it with muhammed (pbuh) himself( as it is still done today)
-companions wrote it:
There was a lot of his companion who were delegated to write the revelations like: Abu Bakr, Umar, Khalid Bin Al-waleed, Zayd ibn Thabit, `Ali ibn Abi Talib, Aban, Bin Said, Mu`awiyah and others(plus the other companions memorizing it also others writing personal copies) all done during the time of the Prophet under his direct supervision.

3-After muhammed(pbuh) death:

The quran was totally written and there was thousands of people memorizing it as a whole and some memorizing parts of it and in the time of abu bakr the first caliph 70 of the memorizer died in a war called el yamama (2 years after muhammed(pbuh) death) so they decided to unite the material of the Quran as it was written in different materials with different companions

4-The criterea of unifying the material to paper:

Zayd ibn Thabit was resposible for this(one of the memorizers of the whole Quran and also was delegated from the prophet himself to write the Quran)
a- He required the presence of two witnesses to testify that this copy was written by the order of the Prophet under his instructions and in his presence.
b- Another two witnesses must also have memorized the contents of such a copy.
c- The members of the presiding committee also memorized the contents, although none of them were accepted as witnesses.
Thus, each copy presented had at least five witnesses: the owner of the manuscript or document, the memorizers, and the two witnesses who witnessed the writing during the time of the Prophet himself. In addition, Abu Bakr and Umar supervised this entire process
That was a compilation of thr Quran not writing and then this copy was kept in the custody of abu bakr and after his death in the custody of umar the second caliph and after his death it was in the custody of hafsa the daughter of umar(to the people thinking that woman was inferior the original copy of the Quran was under a custody of a woman for over 5 years)

5-uthman the third caliph:

in the time of uthman there was a lot muslims from different places The dialectal differences in Arabic among the different Arab tribes were causing disputes over the pronunciation of some verses and they used to write it by how they say it so there was a lot of different spelling errors in their personal copies of the Quran and also in this time a lot of non arab was becoming muslims and they was learning arabic which was also may make a great problem as they will learn and maybe even memorize the Quran in a wrong way
- Uthman acted immediately to address this issue, and he ordered a committee to copy the master copy that Hafsah have. They made six copies, Once they finished these six copies, which were compared to Hafsah copy(that was compiled by abu bakr), all other personal copies owned by individuals were burned(all of this was done in public infront of thouthands of memorizers). Uthman sent these six copies all over the Muslim world, keeping one copy in Madinah and returning the original master copy to Hafsah all this happened after 14 years of muhammed(pbuh) death
NB:we still have uthman copies(not all) till today and its exactly the same as we have(its kept in turkey museum) there is a lot of countries claiming that they have one of uthman copies and they are also the same

6-When do people start changing the religious books:

1-when it does not contain their claims or doctorines
2-when they don’t want to follow its commandments
3-when there is different opinions and they want to force their opinion
4-when they lose the original copies and have many books claiming to be the word of god

7-How to assure the credability of a divine book:

1- the book should contain the major beliefs of the people following it
2-All verses in such manuscripts or books should be accepted by the followers of the respective religion.
3-no different versions or people having hard time saying what is from the book and what is not
4-no anonymous writers the writers must be known
5-you don’t find anyone trying to change or add to the current book
6. The book should include the message of God only as conveyed by the respective prophets and not doctrines or teachings of humans who are supposed to be followers of the prophets.
7-there must be at least one original copy in the original language dating to the time of the prophet or close to his time.
8- The original manuscripts should not contain any variances or contradictory accounts of the same events.

ok guys i couldnt make it shorter than that but hope it will answer the people asking about Quran authenticity after this thread i will take a little rest from refuting misconceptions and will concentrate more on atheism so anyone who wants to know about other subject regarding misconceptions about islam just ask and i will put it in mind and then we can continue later about anything you guys think about islam
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#2
RE: Refuting misconceptions:3-Authenticity and preservation of the Quran
This is a list of the things you believe about the Qur'an still being in its original form to this day. It is not a set of reasons to believe anything in the Qur'an is true.

Perhaps others could dispute the former (I do not know enough about the Qur'an's history, personally), but the latter is simple truth. The book 'Dianetics' is in the same form it was when it was written. There is a religion based upon that (and other writings by the same sci-fi author). Does that make it true?
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#3
RE: Refuting misconceptions:3-Authenticity and preservation of the Quran
am just dealing with what some member mentioned as they think that we dont have the original copy as was with the prophet and that it had been changed
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#4
RE: Refuting misconceptions:3-Authenticity and preservation of the Quran
(June 7, 2010 at 2:25 pm)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: 1-it says in the Quran it will be preserved:

If any changes happened you would have seen a lot of muslim in this time leaving islam as it would be a prove that the Quran is not a revelation from god but that never happened but in fact islam in this time was increasing

Both of these assertions are nonsense.
The Quran will be preserved because says the Quran will be preserved...circular argument, stop using them because it makes you look like a blind fool.

The changes made to a religious text are often not perceived by the masses, or supported by their shepherds so they accept it. The Bible has been extensively modified over its first 2 centuries of existence, some texts have been thrown in, some texts have been cut out, many texts have been changed. Even a few years ago, when the Church had a debate between keeping the Mass in Latin or having it in the country's language, there was a lot of divisions between the communities, but very few actually left the Church. There is no reason why the Quran would be any different.
Even if their objection would have been to the Quran being changed, most were not even aware of these changes, i mean 1400 years ago very few people could even READ !

Quote:2- during muhammed(pbuh)life:

- memorization
It’s a unique thing in islam that people use to memorize all of it as all muslims pray 5 times a day(at least) rectating some of the Quran in the prayer loudly infront of a lot of the muslims imagine this happening for 23 years by thousands of muslims and also in their prayers alone at night(some of them use to pray for 3 or 4 hours at night)
-annual review
Review of the entire Quran in ramadan by the people memorizing it with muhammed (pbuh) himself( as it is still done today)
-companions wrote it:
There was a lot of his companion who were delegated to write the revelations like: Abu Bakr, Umar, Khalid Bin Al-waleed, Zayd ibn Thabit, `Ali ibn Abi Talib, Aban, Bin Said, Mu`awiyah and others(plus the other companions memorizing it also others writing personal copies) all done during the time of the Prophet under his direct supervision.

Even if they did know the Quran by heart, you cannot claim that they transmitted it through the 1400 last years without any alteration made, by word of mouth. The paper support had to be there. And as such, if the written book is altered, then the word transmitted through the generations is altered as well.

Quote:3-After muhammed(pbuh) death:

The quran was totally written and there was thousands of people memorizing it as a whole and some memorizing parts of it and in the time of abu bakr the first caliph 70 of the memorizer died in a war called el yamama (2 years after muhammed(pbuh) death) so they decided to unite the material of the Quran as it was written in different materials with different companions

Wrong, follow the link provided, that is just an assertion you make without evidence.

Quote:4-The criterea of unifying the material to paper:

Zayd ibn Thabit was resposible for this(one of the memorizers of the whole Quran and also was delegated from the prophet himself to write the Quran)
a- He required the presence of two witnesses to testify that this copy was written by the order of the Prophet under his instructions and in his presence.
b- Another two witnesses must also have memorized the contents of such a copy.
c- The members of the presiding committee also memorized the contents, although none of them were accepted as witnesses.
Thus, each copy presented had at least five witnesses: the owner of the manuscript or document, the memorizers, and the two witnesses who witnessed the writing during the time of the Prophet himself. In addition, Abu Bakr and Umar supervised this entire process
That was a compilation of thr Quran not writing and then this copy was kept in the custody of abu bakr and after his death in the custody of umar the second caliph and after his death it was in the custody of hafsa the daughter of umar(to the people thinking that woman was inferior the original copy of the Quran was under a custody of a woman for over 5 years)

Witnesses are irrelevant because they are not objective witnesses, they were all followers and as such cannot be trusted as proof that their master was doing his job right. And even if there were objective eye witnesses, this does not constitute sufficient evidence for the perfection of the Quran. You will probably ask how its preservation can be certain: as for all books, you need to provide the original. Otherwise, there is no definite evidence of your book's preservation.

I cannot comment on "5" as i do not possess the relevant expertise.

Quote:6-When do people start changing the religious books:

1-when it does not contain their claims or doctorines
2-when they don’t want to follow its commandments
3-when there is different opinions and they want to force their opinion
4-when they lose the original copies and have many books claiming to be the word of god

7-How to assure the credability of a divine book:

1- the book should contain the major beliefs of the people following it
2-All verses in such manuscripts or books should be accepted by the followers of the respective religion.
3-no different versions or people having hard time saying what is from the book and what is not
4-no anonymous writers the writers must be known
5-you don’t find anyone trying to change or add to the current book
6. The book should include the message of God only as conveyed by the respective prophets and not doctrines or teachings of humans who are supposed to be followers of the prophets.
7-there must be at least one original copy in the original language dating to the time of the prophet or close to his time.
8- The original manuscripts should not contain any variances or contradictory accounts of the same events.

ok guys i couldnt make it shorter than that but hope it will answer the people asking about Quran authenticity after this thread i will take a little rest from refuting misconceptions and will concentrate more on atheism so anyone who wants to know about other subject regarding misconceptions about islam just ask and i will put it in mind and then we can continue later about anything you guys think about islam

This is a very bad argument: the people who altered the Quran had plenty of time to make it look credible.
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#5
RE: Refuting misconceptions:3-Authenticity and preservation of the Quran
Quote:Both of these assertions are nonsense.
The Quran will be preserved because says the Quran will be preserved...circular argument, stop using them because it makes you look like a blind fool.
i didnt say this i said that god says in the Quran it will be preserved by him(thats not my argument) the people who lived during the Quran being changed would never stayed muslims
Quote:The changes made to a religious text are often not perceived by the masses, or supported by their shepherds so they accept it. The Bible has been extensively modified over its first 2 centuries of existence, some texts have been thrown in, some texts have been cut out, many texts have been changed. Even a few years ago, when the Church had a debate between keeping the Mass in Latin or having it in the country's language, there was a lot of divisions between the communities, but very few actually left the Church. There is no reason why the Quran would be any different.
that didnt happen in the Quran as the people was never different in the main beliefs and there was thousands memorizing the Quran(as i mentioned how much people memorized it) and over all that is was written in the time of muhammed(pbuh) not after 60 or 80 years
Quote:Even if their objection would have been to the Quran being changed, most were not even aware of these changes, i mean 1400 years ago very few people could even READ !
there was a lot who can read and write and if there was any changing in a scripture you will find a massive objections and later you will find massive killing of people who have the original scriptures and to those who are objecting but after all that you will always find different scriptures discovered later as the case in the bible
Quote:Even if they did know the Quran by heart, you cannot claim that they transmitted it through the 1400 last years without any alteration made, by word of mouth. The paper support had to be there. And as such, if the written book is altered, then the word transmitted through the generations is altered as well.
i mentioned 6 persons who was delegated to write the Quran and there was others who was responsible for writing the Quran+people was writing it for themselves+a lot of people memorizing it in the time of its revelation and during the prayers which is 5 times a day a lot others memorizing it also
Quote:Wrong, follow the link provided, that is just an assertion you make without evidence
what link?? anyway am not an expertise in history in certain situations i just read what non muslims who are attacking islam write and if they didnt refuse a situation i assume its credability
Quote:Witnesses are irrelevant because they are not objective witnesses, they were all followers and as such cannot be trusted as proof that their master was doing his job right. And even if there were objective eye witnesses, this does not constitute sufficient evidence for the perfection of the Quran. You will probably ask how its preservation can be certain: as for all books, you need to provide the original. Otherwise, there is no definite evidence of your book's preservation.
there was no need for witnesses as all this was done in public but they put them to avoid any claims that can be said later
Quote:This is a very bad argument: the people who altered the Quran had plenty of time to make it look credible.
there is another religions that had more time to do that but they failled as it is impossible to decieve masses of people all over the world and you will always end with huge mistakes and contradictions
and at last there was no single reason to change anything in the Quran(in other religions they was different in the main concepts) and it was impossible to do that especially with the arabs(the arabic language is so complicated and also they are great memorizers) for 1400 years no one from the people attacking islam and muslims claimed any change in the Quran untill the last hundred years in other religions you will always find people different about their scripture they cant be unified(even different sects and minorities have no different claims about the Quran)
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#6
RE: Refuting misconceptions:3-Authenticity and preservation of the Quran
Quote:7-How to assure the credability of a divine book:

1- the book should contain the major beliefs of the people following it
2-All verses in such manuscripts or books should be accepted by the followers of the respective religion.


The book of scientology is divine. Mo3 has just provided proof!

The book of Mormon is divine. Mo3 has just provided proof!
I used to tell a lot of religious jokes. Not any more, I'm a registered sects offender.
---------------
...the least christian thing a person can do is to become a christian. ~Chuck
---------------
NO MA'AM
[Image: attemptingtogiveadamnc.gif]
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#7
RE: Refuting misconceptions:3-Authenticity and preservation of the Quran
(June 28, 2010 at 7:28 am)Dotard Wrote:
Quote:7-How to assure the credability of a divine book:

1- the book should contain the major beliefs of the people following it
2-All verses in such manuscripts or books should be accepted by the followers of the respective religion.


The book of scientology is divine. Mo3 has just provided proof!

The book of Mormon is divine. Mo3 has just provided proof!

When you proved that the book of scientology is divine because of someone's else argument you can pretty throw all arguments about religion into the crapper.
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#8
RE: Refuting misconceptions:3-Authenticity and preservation of the Quran
(June 28, 2010 at 7:22 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: the people who lived during the Quran being changed would never stayed muslims

Baseless assertion.

Quote:if there was any changing in a scripture you will find a massive objections and later you will find massive killing of people who have the original scriptures

Baseless assertion.

Quote: especially with the arabs(the arabic language is so complicated and also they are great memorizers)

And all Asians are bad drivers. All black folks are good dancers. All white heterosexual males are racist, sexist homophobs.


Quote:for 1400 years no one from the people attacking islam and muslims claimed any change in the Quran untill the last hundred years in other religions you will always find people different about their scripture they cant be unified(even different sects and minorities have no different claims about the Quran)

Oh rly? Your version and interpretations of the Quaran sure do seem different than those of alot of muslims seen on the internet. I know, you say they are not real muslims or believers or whatever. Point is, they have different claims/opinions about what the Quaran says or means.
[/quote]
I used to tell a lot of religious jokes. Not any more, I'm a registered sects offender.
---------------
...the least christian thing a person can do is to become a christian. ~Chuck
---------------
NO MA'AM
[Image: attemptingtogiveadamnc.gif]
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#9
RE: Refuting misconceptions:3-Authenticity and preservation of the Quran
Lies lies lies..

According to Turan Dursun quran has been changed over time.
It is a shocking claim. Becouse Islam world believe in otherwise for certain.
Lets see whats his evidences about this issue.

First of all he says all of the original scripts of quran were burnt.
Why they did it?
“I did it because those that were written in it were already conveyed into the official copy (Mushaf) and kept as they were. I was afraid that after a long time passed, sceptic ones would have doubts about the official copy.” Mervan Ibn Hakem says.
But this is an irrational claim. If there had been no difference between the two. Why would anyone doubt that? “If there had not been some additions to or removals of some verses from it, why should they have been afraid?” Turan says. And at this point he refer to a witness, Ibn Omar;
“None of you should say that he has got the whole Quran. You can never know that most of the Quran has been destroyed and gone forever. Therefore you should only say that you have got whatever has remained from it.” (See Suyuti, el ıtkan, 2/32.) This alone is enough to see that quran has been changed..
But lets look how they gathered original one,
According to hadiths some of the verses were found written on different objects(such as tree leaves or small stones.)in muhammed's house.
Caliph abu bakr gathered the objects so they would not get lost.
Why he did this?
According to buhari,some muslims were converting to their old beliefs
and people who knew quran by hearth were diminishing. So before complately forgotten, quran had to be put together in a book. First they were afraid of doing this becouse Muhammed never intended to gather verses in a book.
“How could it be right to do what the Prophet himself had not done?” Abu Bakr thought.
But finally they were decided to do that. So the task had given to Zeyd Ibn Sabit.
Abu Bakr said to Zeyd;
"You are a clever young man. As you used to be one of the scribes of the Prophet, I believe that you can succeed in doing this job. Search for all the verses and gather them together."
“In the name of Allah I swear that if he had wanted me to move and carry one of those mountains, it would not have been as difficult to me as to do what he told me to do." Zeyd answered.But he was convinced to do this task.Here his own testimony, how he carried out this important task;
“I began to collect the verses; some were on date leaves, some on stones.
I got some from people who had memorized them. In the end, I got the last verses of the Sura “Repentance” (Al Tawba)
from Ebu Huzeymetu'l-Ensari. No-one else had those verses in mind.”
Zeyd explains that those were the last verses(128 – 129) of the Sura “Repentance”
So here you can see Zeyd was depending on people who had memorized the verses and
the objects on which the verses were inscribed.
Again, according to Buhari there were only seven people who had memorized all of the verses.
Even in Muhammad’s time, few people had been able to do that. Here are the hadiths in Buhari’s “e’s-Sahih”.


The first hadith: Amr Ibnu'l-Ass conveys, “I heard the Prophet say,
‘Get the Quran from four people; Abdullah Ibn Mes'ud, Salim, Muaz and Übeyy Ibn Ka'b. (Buhari, Fadailu'l-Kuran 8.)
The second hadith: Enes conveys, “When the Prophet passed away,
there was no-one other than only four people to have memorized the whole of the Quran; Ebu'd-Derda,
Muaz Ibn Cebel, Zeyd Ibn Sabit and Ebu Zeyd." (Buhari.)
The third hadith: Katade conveys, “I asked Enes Ibn Malik the number of the
people who had memorized the whole Quran and he replied, ‘They are four altogether,
all from Medina; Übeyy Ibn Ka'b, Muaz Ibn Cebel, Zeyd Ibn Sabit and Ebu Zeyd

When we make a list of the names in these three hadiths, there must have been seven people to have memorized the whole Quran when Muhammad was alive.
(i give up here. becouse its too long and this part alone is enough to prove that quran is changed..)
For more information you can check;
http://www.turandursun.net/en/criticism/...-more.html
Quote:Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends.

Gandalf The Gray.
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#10
RE: Refuting misconceptions:3-Authenticity and preservation of the Quran
1-caliph mervan was the 14 th caliph that was a long time after caliph othman and his claims are based on nothing and i want to know how you are sure he even said that
2-the language of different families in different regions was not the same for example: french people cant say R in the same way we say it the same problem was there so some of the people writing personal copies of the Quran used to write it like they say it(wrong spelling) which may have lead to different translation and understanding specially from new muslims who dont even speak arabic
3-most of the claims made contradict what is said in the begining of the article that they was gathering the parts written in the time of muhammed(pbuh)
Narrated Qatadah: I asked Anas Ibn Malik: ‘Who collected the Qur’an at the time of Prophet?’ He replied: ‘Four, all of whom were from the Ansar: Ubay Ibn Ka‘ab, Mu‘adh Ibn Jabal, Zayd Ibn Thabit and Abu Zayd.’ (Bukhari, Kitab Fada’ilu’l-Qur’an)
4-the witnesses you are talking about was just confirming that these parts was written by the people responsible to write the Quran infront of them
5-in othman time the third caliph there was nothing done except burning personal copies to avoid different prenouncations and making copies from the original(gathered together by abu bakr) which i give the prove above that it was written and complete in time of muhammed(pbuh)
6-http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/hadith_not_from_prophet_(P1177).html
the hadith you mentioned from el seyuti book he wrote it to prove it was wrong and unauthentic i got the book in arabic but i cant find it in english translation(if you have it give me the link)
there is a lot of fabricated hadith in history books and i dont claim the authenticity of the hadith there is a lot of saying that was proved to be said by someone who was pretending to be a muslim or even said by anonymus persons(most of the hadith you brought)
7-Sahihi Buhari was just collecting all the sayings from different people and he himself wrote about a lot of the hadith in his book that it was proved to be fabricated(daeef)

in my thread from the begining i didnt use hadith as a proof for anything as authenticity is not approved as history books(there are certain rules to use hadith) i used what we have from history and confirmed stories from all history books(which authenticity is not approved 100%) and i tried to use logic as possible from the different stories written even when using hadith in setting rules its also up to the ruler and shurra under the general rules in the Quran

am not answering articles anymore if you post an article about something i will just copy and paste another article that prove your claims wrong which in the end will lead us to nothing you will believe what you want to hear even if it is someone attacking islam with no evidance and i just ignore claims with no proof even if its in my own benefit
usage of hadith is a science which can take years in studying and it needs experts to decide how to use hadith and comapare it with the Quran
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