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Witness Evidence
#1
Witness Evidence
I have often been told by atheist that witness testimony and observation either isn't evidence, or is evidence of poor quality. I question this notion. 

Yes there are issues within witness testimony and observations of humans in general.  The nature of memory will attempt to fill in gaps.  People can lie, be biased and mistaken.  Yet we trust in our own and others observations all the time.  It would be impossible to live your life without believing that our observances are mostly accurate of reality.  And if we lived based on our own experience alone, the world would be a very small place. Our view of reality is greater, by comparing our view of reality to others.  I would make the case, that not only is witness testimony evidence, but it is one of the strongest evidences we have.
  • Every other piece of evidence has to go through our senses and minds.   Therefore every other evidence is subject to observation and the problems that all humans suffer from.
  • Testimony is more inclusive.  Short of video evidence where each individual can review what happened (and more than once), human observance can tell you more about what actually happened more than any other evidence.  Tests may be able to tell you if the person was in the room (at some time) or that the person has fired a gun recently.  I'm not saying that other evidence is insignificant, but that witness testimony can often tell you more.  Witnesses can even tell you about the demeanor of the person before, during, or after the crime.
  • The sequence of events can be determined.  This can also lead to collaborating evidence.
  • Witnesses seen what happened.  So we can have direct evidence without inference. (although sometimes it can be difficult to get a witness to give you only what they seen, without interpreting what it means).  
  • Testimony can give you evidence for things that leave no other physical evidence.
  • Many in intelligence and investigative professions rely heavily on witness testimony.
  • Observation is the best evidence for what is possible.

You can find a number of articles and even professional opinions if you do an internet search for the reliability of witness testimony. However if you look closely at what they are saying, it is about specific issues within the topic. They do not say that observation is unreliable as a whole (if they did, I would ask how they knew this).  If there are issues with another form of evidence such as DNA identification, do you throw it out completely, or do you try and identify and limit the errors to keep what is good? 

So what strengthens testimony (or the lack of decreases it's worth). Collaborating testimonies and evidence can verify what a witness reports. As with any evidence multiple pieces that tell the same story are less likely to be in error in the same way. Time and proximity lessen error. Familiarity will make a testimony more reliable; we can better recognize what we know. We may mistake some details in what we remember or some thing may have more focus or less (given the person witnessing and perspective). But it is rarely completely inaccurate (short of lying).

I'm not saying that witness testimony is the be all... end all. Any evidence needs to be evaluated in light of all other evidence (pro and con), and in regard to it's strengths and weaknesses. And depending on the circumstances, witness testimony may not be reliable at all. Even biases or motivation to lie, can be a strength or weakness (or it may be of null value). It needs to be dealt with given the circumstances and considerations for each account. Hasty generalizations about all testimony and without looking at the facts is both naïve and I believe impossible to live.
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#2
RE: Witness Evidence
Thousands of people have personal experiences where they were abducted by aliens.

I put as much credibility on them as I do with the personal experiences of theists, whether they be Christians, Muslims, Hindus, or others.

Personal experiences are only evidence to those who have had the experience or are already prepared to believe them.

So, either the Christians, Muslims, Hindu, etc., religious types AND the abductees are all correct, or they're not

Playing Cluedo with my mum while I was at Uni:

"You did WHAT?  With WHO?  WHERE???"
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#3
RE: Witness Evidence
Isn't the fact that God talks to people proof enough that personal testimony is completely unreliable as an accurate fact.

Surely you're not suggesting that Allah is real because millions claim it is. And we won't start on Scientology or Mormonism.
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
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#4
RE: Witness Evidence
A unproven claim by millions is nothing more than the Argumentum ad populum fallacy.
"Never trust a fox. Looks like a dog, behaves like a cat."
~ Erin Hunter
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#5
RE: Witness Evidence
Reporting a subjective interpretation of something as intangible as a spiritual experience is hardly witness evidence because the witness didn't see anything!

At best it's just a feeling that seems right to the person having the experience.  In a court of law, a witness cannot testify that he or she feels in their heart that the defendant was the shooter.
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#6
RE: Witness Evidence
Quote:I have often been told by atheist that witness testimony and observation either isn't evidence, or is evidence of poor quality. I question this notion.

Ever served on jury duty?

A defense attorney can tear an eye witness to shreds like a shark with a harbor seal because most people are about as observant as a loaf of bread.
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#7
RE: Witness Evidence
Witness testimony by itsself doesn't amount to anything. The Mormon church is a good example of how quickly divided a movement can become. It's ot old, yet it has hundreds of divisions already. The issue with the bible is even worse, because the writings aren't even from supposed eye witnesses. They're second hand knowledge at best, and at worst writings hundred of years after the events supposedly took place. An anonymous author wrote a passage about dead unnamed saints coming to life, roaming the town, and being seen by 500 unnamed people. That is a worthless bit of information.
Poe's Law: "Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing."

10 Christ-like figures that predate Jesus. Link shortened to Chris ate Jesus for some reason...
http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-chris...ate-jesus/

Good video to watch, if you want to know how common the Jesus story really is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88GTUXvp-50

A list of biblical contradictions from the infallible word of Yahweh.
http://infidels.org/library/modern/jim_m...tions.html

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#8
RE: Witness Evidence
yes thats true we do have to trust in other peoples observations . we trust in the observations of scientists for example , not all eyewitness testomony is accepted as reliable you have to take a good look at the eyewitnesses and take into account their mental state and many other factors to determine the reliability of the testamony . If we have no information about an eyewitness as to their reliability and mental state then that eyewitness testomony shouldnt be trusted . do we know the mental state of the people who were eyewitnesses to jesus? how do you know their mental state and that their testomony can be trusted ?

" witness testimony can often tell you more.  Witnesses can even tell you about the demeanor of the person before, during, or after the crime. " , witnesses can also be examined and studied to determine if they are reliable witnesses .
was that done ? if not their testomony shouldnt be trusted and should be dismissed . do you trust the eyewitness testomony of people who witnessed mohammed being taken up into the sky ? if not why not ?
Imagine there's no heaven It's easy if you try No hell below us Above us only sky Imagine all the people Living for today   FSM Grin   Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no religion too Imagine all the people Living life in peace You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you will join us And the world will be as one  - John Lennon

The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also  - Mark Twain
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#9
RE: Witness Evidence
The "observations of scientists" is a very bad example.

The scientist is just the person testing an experiment.
The validity of the data comes from its repeatability.

The same scientist can also say he's been anal probed by aliens.
The scientific method is designed to avoid this exact subjective issue.
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
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#10
RE: Witness Evidence
Quote:
Quote:The same scientist can also say he's been anal probed by aliens.

Or a brain surgeon who thinks a pyramid is an effective grain silo.
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