Tourettes (water canopy thread)

[Rob]

Well, that isn't true though. The Bible says that they would die only if they ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and bad. Had they not done so there wouldn't be any flaws.

Wait a second, what exactly were the atributes of this fruit? If it granted the knowledge of good and bad then how were they supposed to know what they were doing was wrong in the first place and if thats all it did then how did that start the chain of events leading to people having a 90% reduction in life span. Also, since they didnt know any better before eating the fruit what was to stop then sinning? Is ignorance bliss? Just because they didnt know they were sinning meant they wern't sinning? surly there was sin before the fruit, they were just unaware of it.

Don't be like all the others . . . please? I don't ask that you be like me but don't be like all the others . . .

Wow, im not sure what to say to that. Ive only ever seen water suspended in mid air as an optical illusion where the water is actually falling at the same speed as the camera filming it. To say that there was once a layer of water sitting atop the atmosphere just defies logic. I can debate with you hyperthetically, but it wouldnt impact the reality of the matter.

[Edwardo Piet]

Beliefs change. I used to believe that there was no such thing as a god. True, at the time that is the way I was raised and I didn't even know what a god really was, but ... nevertheless that is what I believed. I chose to believe. This changed when I educated myself on the subject and realized I was wrong.

Well we have a different opinion here. Because what I would think is: It is the information (good or bad) on the subject, which you got, that convinced you enough so that you believed in it. Why would you suddenly think "Oh, I want to believe now! I choose to believe now!" What has choice got to do with it? You believe for a reason not because you 'want to'. Wanting to isn't a good reason. If you think it is thats because you're convinced that it is. Thats the reason, and you didn't choose that.
I don't think that you chose to think that you can choose belief, for example.
If you chose it then if you'd chose the opposite would you believe that you can't choose belief therefore not be able to choose it unless convinced otherwise? How could you choose the choose? There has to be a reason. Belief isn't just believing whatever you want. There are reasons whether bad or good. Right? If choosing to believe something is you reason for believing it then thats still a reason. And I don't believe you chose that.

[Daystar]

Wait a second, what exactly were the atributes of this fruit? If it granted the knowledge of good and bad then how were they supposed to know what they were doing was wrong in the first place and if thats all it did then how did that start the chain of events leading to people having a 90% reduction in life span. Also, since they didnt know any better before eating the fruit what was to stop then sinning? Is ignorance bliss? Just because they didnt know they were sinning meant they wern't sinning? surly there was sin before the fruit, they were just unaware of it.

The fruit didn't have atributes granting knowledge, it was a symbolic representation of God's reminder to mankind that as creator they needed his guidance and protection. The only rule they had was that they should not eat or touch the fruit but to take care of the tree.

What it really meant is that eating of the fruit was a demonstration by Adam that he would decide what was good and what was bad. We can do this without you, thanks.

It resulted in death because when God, who had given mankind the planet to do what they want, couldn't be a part of their decision. He was rejected and so could no longer give them the prtection and guidance they really needed. This resulted in a much less safe and healthy environment.

Before they ate the fruit they knew only good, had they listened to God they wouldn't have had to know bad. Death and sickness. The only sin before they did take of the fruit the only sin that had been was the angel who had been in charge of the first human couple's protection, and was later known as Satan, decieved Eve. That was the first sin. Sin means simply to miss the mark.

Wow, im not sure what to say to that. Ive only ever seen water suspended in mid air as an optical illusion where the water is actually falling at the same speed as the camera filming it. To say that there was once a layer of water sitting atop the atmosphere just defies logic. I can debate with you hyperthetically, but it wouldnt impact the reality of the matter.

The reality being that it is immpossible for there to have been a circle of water vapor around the planet? The region above about 80 miles is over 100° F and possibly rising to 3000° F. Thermosphere. High temperature is the chief requisite for retaining a large quanity of water vapor, which is lighter than air and most gases making up the atmosphere. There is nothing impossible about what the Bible says. The water canopy was possible.

[CoxRox]

I've never had a problem with believing there was this water canopy because I assumed it was comprised of water vapour and sitting up there forming this 'barrier' around the earth. Would such a 'barrier' be possible and afford any kind of protection?

[Baird]

You know what I find so funny about this forum?
The fact that a topic about Tourettes, or something totally different than religion always ends up in a discussion about religion...

[lukec]

The thermosphere is not nearly dense enough to hold water on the magnitude you're speaking of, and as such it is not truly "hot," although the few particles in it can reach high temperatures. But it's practically a vacuum, and it's minimum 80 km out- the space station is in orbit in its upper reaches. Don't twist facts.

[Daystar]

Well we have a different opinion here. Because what I would think is: It is the information (good or bad) on the subject, which you got, that convinced you enough so that you believed in it.

When I was younger I was raised as a non religious non militant atheist. When presented with the choice of being a Xian I rejected that because I thought Xians were nuts, delusional, hypocrites. I made a choice based upon that. I chose not to believe in God even without any real knowledge of God. Later, when I studied the Bible in order to debunk it I realized that Xians were worse than the crazy, delusion, hypocrites they obviously were, they also fucked up the real meaning of the Bible for the sake of stupid pagan myth and Santy Clause. God and the Bible was true.

Why would you suddenly think "Oh, I want to believe now! I choose to believe now!" What has choice got to do with it? You believe for a reason not because you 'want to'. Wanting to isn't a good reason. If you think it is thats because you're convinced that it is. Thats the reason, and you didn't choose that.

You choose to believe based upon what you know. Do you think belief is some supernatural phenomenon that just happens. "Oh, I didn't want to believe that but (DUH) I do! Luck of the draw, I guess."

I am not saying that one believes what one wants to believe, though that is common, I am saying that one has a choice, based upon either no knowledge or great knowledge. A desire or a rational reason but a choice nevertheless.

I don't think that you chose to think that you can choose belief, for example.
If you chose it then if you'd chose the opposite would you believe that you can't choose belief therefore not be able to choose it unless convinced otherwise? How could you choose the choose? There has to be a reason. Belief isn't just believing whatever you want. There are reasons whether bad or good. Right? If choosing to believe something is you reason for believing it then thats still a reason. And I don't believe you chose that.

You're not making any sense. Think about it. You choose.

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You know what I find so funny about this forum?
The fact that a topic about Tourettes, or something totally different than religion always ends up in a discussion about religion...

It drives me fucking crazy. I have to keep up with like 20 people coming at me constantly and keep it all together and I am sitting here thinking . . . "Was the water canopy in the Tourettes thread or the hemorrhoids thread?!"

[leo-rcc]

I've never had a problem with believing there was this water canopy because I assumed it was comprised of water vapour and sitting up there forming this 'barrier' around the earth. Would such a 'barrier' be possible and afford any kind of protection?

At best you get ice crystals forming in the mesosphere, creating a thin layer that would look like the Northern lights. When it comes to the protection against radiation, our Ozone layer is doing a much better job than water ever could.

What a water canopy the magnitude that Daystar speaks of would do is reflect a lot of the sunlight needed to warm the planet back into space, causing the entire globe to stay in a permanent ice age.

[Daystar]

The thermosphere is not nearly dense enough to hold water on the magnitude you're speaking of, and as such it is not truly "hot," although the few particles in it can reach high temperatures. But it's practically a vacuum, and it's minimum 80 km out- the space station is in orbit in its upper reaches. Don't twist facts.

I didn't twist the facts you make a baseless assumption and expect everyone to believe it because most people want to because they don't believe in the Bible or my information, but I have learned the quickest way to deal with this is to ask questions. This 'scientific' approach so common with militant skeptics such as yourself is easily stiffled with questions.

How dense is the thermosphere and how dense would it have to be to hold what amount of water vapor needed to flood the entire earth as the Bible states, and is 100° - 3000° F "hot" enough? Tell me why it won't work. Google that.

[LukeMC]

eeeeeh.

What it really meant is that eating of the fruit was a demonstration by Adam that he would decide what was good and what was bad. We can do this without you, thanks.

No knowledge of good or bad, no responsibilty on the humans to do the right thing.

It resulted in death because when God, who had given mankind the planet to do what they want, couldn't be a part of their decision. He was rejected and so could no longer give them the prtection and guidance they really needed. This resulted in a much less safe and healthy environment.

Say what? I'm sure he could manage if he tried.

Before they ate the fruit they knew only good, had they listened to God they wouldn't have had to know bad.

Good is a reletive term, and only good in comparison with bad or less good. You won't convince anybody that they can know good without knowing bad. Unless they are completely absent of a mind and the ability to assess a situation and make choices.

There is nothing impossible about what the Bible says.

must... quote... kyu

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When I was younger I was raised as a non religious non militant atheist. When presented with the choice of being a Xian I rejected that because I thought Xians were nuts, delusional, hypocrites. I made a choice based upon that. I chose not to believe in God even without any real knowledge of God. Later, when I studied the Bible in order to debunk it I realized that Xians were worse than the crazy, delusion, hypocrites they obviously were, they also fucked up the real meaning of the Bible for the sake of stupid pagan myth and Santy Clause. God and the Bible was true.

Non sequitar. You read the bible and it is true. You're missing a vital step Daystar. The evidence part?