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The Problem of Good
#51
RE: The Problem of Good
(December 28, 2015 at 5:36 pm)orangebox21 Wrote:
(December 28, 2015 at 4:58 pm)robvalue Wrote: Free will, free will. Ah, everything's better after free will.

I was wondering, while driving home, do I really have the choice to throw the steering wheel to the right and crash my car for no reason, probably killing myself and others? I rather doubt that I do. Too many fail-safes.
You have the free will to throw the steering wheel to the right.  The results of that choice are beyond the control of your will.  Please don't throw the steering wheel to the right.  Go see a mechanic and get it reattached to the steering column instead.

There is no free will.

In other news: I like peanut M&Ms.
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#52
RE: The Problem of Good
I'm increasingly of the opinion that the phrase "free will" is a rather meaningless form of woo. It has the hallmarks: no two people fully agree on what it means, and it has no basis in science.

We are stuff. We're not magic.

It's not as bad as spirituality, but it's on the same scale.
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#53
RE: The Problem of Good
I knew someone who said the words "free" and "will" put together are simply an oxymoron.
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#54
RE: The Problem of Good
Everyone keeps talking about free will, but I never find a coupon for it in my Sunday circular.
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#55
RE: The Problem of Good
(December 28, 2015 at 9:16 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Everyone keeps talking about free will, but I never find a coupon for it in my Sunday circular.
It's free swill.
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#56
RE: The Problem of Good
You guys only deny that you have free will because the initial conditions of the universe make you think that you don't. Prove that the universe is causally closed and I might listen to arguments for determinism. Till then, I'll make my own choices, thank you.
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#57
RE: The Problem of Good
You make it sound as though you can't freely will what you believe, that you must instead be compelled?   Rolleyes

In any case, is that why I deny that I have free will?  Good thing you came along to tell me why.....................
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#58
RE: The Problem of Good
(December 28, 2015 at 9:14 pm)Evie Wrote: I knew someone who said the words "free" and "will" put together are simply an oxymoron.

Hah! I like it. "Free" is certainly a bad start. The laws of nature reduce my options to virtually nil, out of all the choices I would like to make, before I even get started. Then my past shapes me, probably entirely, and events occur which I am continually reacting to.

I think the concept is a non-starter, and we should just stick to the verifiable science. More and more, it feels like the word "soul", an attempt to make ourselves out to be more than we are.

I'd like to address the following flawed argument I've heard so many times:

"If there is no free well, then we shouldn't punish people for their action."

This isn't just incorrect, it's malformed. If there is no free will, then the word "should" becomes meaningless. The above falls into the trap of thinking along the lines of an agent with free will, standing in judgement of an agent without it.
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#59
RE: The Problem of Good
(December 29, 2015 at 12:38 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:
(December 28, 2015 at 9:16 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Everyone keeps talking about free will, but I never find a coupon for it in my Sunday circular.
It's free swill.

Maybe that is why I cant find it, sane companies wont give away bad logic.
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#60
RE: The Problem of Good
(December 29, 2015 at 2:54 am)robvalue Wrote:
(December 28, 2015 at 9:14 pm)Evie Wrote: I knew someone who said the words "free" and "will" put together are simply an oxymoron.

Hah! I like it. "Free" is certainly a bad start. The laws of nature reduce my options to virtually nil, out of all the choices I would like to make, before I even get started. Then my past shapes me, probably entirely, and events occur which I am continually reacting to.

I think the concept is a non-starter, and we should just stick to the verifiable science. More and more, it feels like the word "soul", an attempt to make ourselves out to be more than we are.
You mean we should just stick to whatever deterministic processes have led us to believe right?  After all, the conclusion "we should just stick to the verifiable science" is predetermined.  And if I believe in God, then that was predetermined as well.  How do you reconcile the glaring inconsistency:  The same naturalistic processes that led me to conclude that God exists have led you to conclude that he doesn't?    
(December 29, 2015 at 2:54 am)robvalue Wrote: I'd like to address the following flawed argument I've heard so many times:

"If there is no free well, then we shouldn't punish people for their action."

This isn't just incorrect, it's malformed. If there is no free will, then the word "should" becomes meaningless. The above falls into the trap of thinking along the lines of an agent with free will, standing in judgement of an agent without it.
Just the opposite.  An agent with free will standing in judgment of an agent without it would be represented by a person having no free will and being punished for his/her choices.  It would be as absurd as a person with free will punishing hydrochloric acid when it reacts with sodium hydroxide.  The hydrochloric acid is governed by deterministic naturalistic processes and cannot [when in contact with sodium hydroxide] act any other way than to change it's molecular structure into sodium chloride.  In the same way, you can't stand in any kind of moral judgment over someone's actions, after all he/she is limited to acting in a predetermined manner when interacting with the environment around him/her.

If it could be proven beyond doubt that God exists...
and that He is the one spoken of in the Bible...
would you repent of your sins and place your faith in Jesus Christ?



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