Loving and forgiving your enemies

[Excited Penguin]

And, once again, apologize for what EP?

I'm the one being civil here. Why would I apologize, for what?

Forget about it. You don't have to apologize. I do. Forgive me for being an asshole.

[Edwardo Piet]

Evie, it's not that I think I'm wrong. It's just that you're so wrong that I frankly can't see any way to get through to you. I have no idea what the problem is, maybe it's talking to too many religious people and thus expecting anyone who genuinely disagrees with you to be as insincere and unskillful in debate as they are, particularly when I raise the level of the conversation beyond a point you can handle, apparently, and then it's like I'm the stupid one instead.

You need to be more open-minded. Maybe one day we will be able to get through to each other, but as it is, I could only properly converse with you if I took advantage of the fact that I far better understand your position than you do mine(most of the time).

Again, sounds like you're talking about yourself. You need to be open minded. You need to admit that you're wrong. And why on earth would I apologize when I'm the civil one?

What's so hard to understand about "You're using a nonstandard definition of "forgiveness" that no one else here is using, and when using the standard definition the hypothetical thought experiment you raise is a false dichotomy."?

That's true. Within the standard definition of "forgiveness" one can defend themselves from a killer by killing the killer and yet still forgive them afterwards.

Are we supposed to assume you're using your own made-up definition of "forgiveness"?

[Edwardo Piet]

And, once again, apologize for what EP?

I'm the one being civil here. Why would I apologize, for what?

Forget about it. You don't have to apologize. I do. Forgive me for being an asshole.

It's okay I never resented you in the first place

Nothing to forgive.

[Edwardo Piet]

Besides, it wasn't meant for you. You do understand what I want CL to, or at least I hope you do.

Well if you're going to bring me into it now, I'm interested.

What do you hope I understand?

You didn't mention forgiveness? So "turn the other cheek" wasn't meant to mean "forgiveness"?

I'm confused, this whole thread is about forgiveness.

So you do agree that in your thought experiment it's possible to kill the person trying to kill you and still forgive them then?

[Thumpalumpacus]

The idea of Excited Penguin being able to gave an intelligent discussion about something as nuanced as forgiveness is, lamentably, funny.

[Edwardo Piet]

[...]particularly when I raise the level of the conversation beyond a point you can handle [...]

Yeah... totally (!)

I'm not that fucking stupid.

This is all very basic level. I'm capable of much greater depth than this: so don't flatter yourself. I wouldn't want to make your little penguin head hurt with too many layers of analysis.

See, I can do arrogant asshole too.

[Homeless Nutter]

Ok, just making sure because you made a huge blanket statement about Christians who choose to forgive.

No. I made a statement about my interpretation of christian concept of forgiveness, as illustrated by the quote from a popular prayer - not about people, who happen to be christians and choose to forgive. Those are two different things. Forgiving someone in order to have closure and end grieving process - that's one thing. Forgiving them because you're told it is expected of you, if you want to be a "good christian" - that's another.

[Catholic_Lady]

Ok, just making sure because you made a huge blanket statement about Christians who choose to forgive.

No. I made a statement about my interpretation of christian concept of forgiveness, as illustrated by the quote from a popular prayer - not about people, who happen to be christians and choose to forgive. Those are two different things. Forgiving someone in order to have closure and end grieving process - that's one thing. Forgiving them because you're told it is expected of you, if you want to be a "good christian" - that's another.

They don't have to be mutually exclusive at all. The more common thing is for it to be both. Forgive because it helps the healing process and because you feel it is the right thing to do. Sounds like for this particular lady it was both.

[Edwardo Piet]

Forgiveness can start off as a conscious effort and in some sense "artificial" and then become very natural and automatic.

Like many things in life that can become automatic and a natural part of you after a bit of effort.

Do I believe people can be taught to be more compassionate? Short answer: yes.

I also believe that cultivating compassionate behaviors and habits can make you have more compassionate feelings too.

It depends on the person though.

[Catholic_Lady]

Agreed. People usually have to work on getting to the point where they wanna be, and that normally doesn't happen over night.