Loving and forgiving your enemies

[Edwardo Piet]

Very true.

And since we agree, CL, sex now?

[Homeless Nutter]

They don't have to be mutually exclusive at all. The more common thing is for it to be both. Forgive because it helps the healing process and because you feel it is the right thing to do.

No. The first thing - that's what happens. The latter - that's just what sanctimonious people say in order to appear more noble, and/or to cover the fact that they haven't dealt with the issue at all - they're just going through the motions, because they were indoctrinated since childhood into believing, that it's what they're supposed to do.

How can you tell, if a person truly is at peace with the injustice that happened to them, if all their life they were told, that you want to hear, that they are?

Forcing people to issue blanket forgiveness is like indiscriminately putting only a band-aid on every wound, regardless of its severity. Some people have scratches and a band-aid works well enough, although they could have gone without it altogether. Other people have serious wounds and simply sticking a one-size-fits-all band-aid only makes them fester.

[Catholic_Lady]

I'm not sure why you have such an issue with people trying to do what they believe to be the right thing, but ok.

[Whateverist]

And it isn't a false fucking dichotomy since the FUCKING SCENARIO I DESCRIBED LITERALLY INCLUDES JUST THE TWO OPTIONS. ITS NOT REALITY, IT'S A FUCKING THOUGHT EXPERIMENT.

Love it when you shout.  It totally matches my image of you.

[Excited Penguin]

And it isn't a false fucking dichotomy since the FUCKING SCENARIO I DESCRIBED LITERALLY INCLUDES JUST THE TWO OPTIONS. ITS NOT REALITY, IT'S A FUCKING THOUGHT EXPERIMENT.

Love it when you shout.  It totally matches my image of you.

Yeah, I know. If you can make me lose my patience and fit some warped image you have of me inside your head you can ignore me when I'm making sense.

[Catholic_Lady]

They don't have to be mutually exclusive at all. The more common thing is for it to be both. Forgive because it helps the healing process and because you feel it is the right thing to do.

No. The first thing - that's what happens. The latter - that's just what sanctimonious people say in order to appear more noble, and/or to cover the fact that they haven't dealt with the issue at all - they're just going through the motions, because they were indoctrinated since childhood into believing, that it's what they're supposed to do.

How can you tell, if a person truly is at peace with the injustice that happened to them, if all their life they were told, that you want to hear, that they are?

Forcing people to issue blanket forgiveness is like indiscriminately putting only a band-aid on every wound, regardless of its severity. Some people have scratches and a band-aid works well enough, although they could have gone without it altogether. Other  people have serious wounds and simply sticking a one-size-fits-all band-aid only makes them fester.

Do you always think that people who try to do something because it is the right thing to do are sanctimonious and phony, or only when it is a Christian principle?  

Also, you said you didn't know what the motives were of the woman in the video, even though she clearly said she believes forgiveness is the right thing to do. Yet here you make it pretty clear that you think people who do this are not being genuine. So, I'm confused. Which is it?

[Whateverist]

Love it when you shout.  It totally matches my image of you.

Yeah, I know. If you can make me lose my patience and fit some warped image you have of me inside your head you can ignore me when I'm making sense.

AN ADDED BONUS!!!


(Not sure why I'm shouting .. but it is kinda fun.)

[drfuzzy]

No. The first thing - that's what happens. The latter - that's just what sanctimonious people say in order to appear more noble, and/or to cover the fact that they haven't dealt with the issue at all - they're just going through the motions, because they were indoctrinated since childhood into believing, that it's what they're supposed to do.

---

How can you tell, if a person truly is at peace with the injustice that happened to them, if all their life they were told, that you want to hear, that they are?

Forcing people to issue blanket forgiveness is like indiscriminately putting only a band-aid on every wound, regardless of its severity. Some people have scratches and a band-aid works well enough, although they could have gone without it altogether. Other  people have serious wounds and simply sticking a one-size-fits-all band-aid only makes them fester.  

---

Do you always think that people who try to do something because it is the right thing to do are sanctimonious and phony, or only when it is a Christian principle?  

Also, you said you didn't know what the motives were of the woman in the video, even though she clearly said she believes forgiveness is the right thing to do. Yet here you make it pretty clear that you think people who do this are not being genuine. So, I'm confused. Which is it?

HN's quote was exactly what I was trying to say earlier, CL.  There are so many layers of personal motivation required by the act of "forgiveness", and so many different cultural views about what forgiveness means, that it can be difficult to know what a person's motivation was for the act.  Add to that a church emphasis on forgiveness - and things get more complicated, because it's supposed to be a Christian thing to do - - even if you don't feel like it.

People can be going through the motions, because others tell them it's the right thing and will make them feel better.  People can be TRYING to forgive for the same reason, as I once was, and failing miserably - - causing them to think that they are evil, and total failures.  People can be trying to be seen as going through the motions, when their hatred and judgment of the other person has not actually changed at all.

It's not so much a religion thing as a human thing - how we're trying to relate to those around us, how we want to be seen by our family and friends. This is why I loved the idea of trying to understand, instead of trying to forgive.  The act of asking questions, of reflective thought, of interaction with the one who has wronged us, makes us see the other as equal.  It makes us understand that there are two people who need to heal and move on.

[The Grand Nudger]

Do you always think that people who try to do something because it is the right thing to do are sanctimonious and phony, or only when it is a Christian principle?  

I do.  In fact, it's a case example of what it means to be sanctimonious and phony.  If the alternative to them being sanctimonious and phony is for them to be true to their own murderous nature..ofc I'd prefer that they be sanctimonious and phony.

[Edwardo Piet]

No. The first thing - that's what happens. The latter - that's just what sanctimonious people say in order to appear more noble, and/or to cover the fact that they haven't dealt with the issue at all - they're just going through the motions, because they were indoctrinated since childhood into believing, that it's what they're supposed to do.

I disagree. Not only do I genuinely forgive people in my proverbial heart as opposed to merely practical reasons... but I often am able to avoid blaming them in a non-practical way in the first place. I can hold them responsible for their actions practically, without remotely resenting them or blaming them in an interpersonal-hatred kind of way at all. Even if they're a total cunt in their behavior.