Proselytizing

[Scented Nectar]

There is a big difference in how I react to different theists, depending on their personalities. I have a genuine soft spot for those whose motivation is that they truly want to save me from a horrible future (hell). These are usually the same people who tend to change the horrible things in their holy books to have a nicer meaning, one that is more in line with their own inner good nature.

Here's what might be my favourite youtube video to spam/proselytise all over various forums, but it's really appropriate to this thread I think, so here it is again. Dusty Smith here used to try to save people from hell because he truly believed that the threat was real.

[youtube]9qQQNZOzFo8[/youtube]

[rjh4 is back]

Here's what might be my favourite youtube video to spam/proselytise all over various forums, but it's really appropriate to this thread I think, so here it is again. Dusty Smith here used to try to save people from hell because he truly believed that the threat was real.

Eloquent...(read sarcasm).

While I somewhat understand his point relative to his experience, to conclude that all Chrisianity is like this or even that mentioning hell to a child makes one a terrorist is ridiculous. It is like saying that if you tell your child not to murder someone because you might be put to death by the government, you are a terrorist. Actions and inactions have consequences. Teaching children or anybody else that such is the case and what those consequences might be does not, in my opinion, automatically make one a terrorist.

[Minimalist]

"Terrorist" is one of those words ( like 'hero') which has been overused to the point of uselessness.

[rjh4 is back]

"Terrorist" is one of those words ( like 'hero') which has been overused to the point of uselessness.

I agree with you on that, Min.

[Scented Nectar]

Eloquent...(read sarcasm).

While I somewhat understand his point relative to his experience, to conclude that all Chrisianity is like this or even that mentioning hell to a child makes one a terrorist is ridiculous. It is like saying that if you tell your child not to murder someone because you might be put to death by the government, you are a terrorist. Actions and inactions have consequences. Teaching children or anybody else that such is the case and what those consequences might be does not, in my opinion, automatically make one a terrorist.

Even if you think that word is too extreme, or means something more specific to war, or whatever, there is still the issue of the religion causing fear of doing nonharmful things like thoughts, for instance not actively thinking 'love' thoughts (worship, prayer, adoration, etc) about someone (your xtian god) when ORDERED to, gets punished with eternal torture. That is cruel and unfair, unlike warnings against doing harmful things like murder. Also, the punishment is not real, whereas jail/execution for murder is real. Same with the fact that there is no god reading the kid's mind constantly as threatened, unlike witnesses/clues/evidence/forensics/autopsies seeing that a murder has been done.

[rjh4 is back]

Even if you think that word is too extreme, or means something more specific to war, or whatever, there is still the issue of the religion causing fear of doing nonharmful things like thoughts, for instance not actively thinking 'love' thoughts (worship, prayer, adoration, etc) about someone (your xtian god) when ORDERED to, gets punished with eternal torture. That is cruel and unfair, unlike warnings against doing harmful things like murder. Also, the punishment is not real, whereas jail/execution for murder is real. Same with the fact that there is no god reading the kid's mind constantly as threatened, unlike witnesses/clues/evidence/forensics/autopsies seeing that a murder has been done.

Cruel and unfair? That, of course, either presupposes some objective standard of fairness and cruelty or is merely your opinion.

The punishment is not real? And you "know" this how? You may not believe it is real.

Don't get me wrong Scented Nectar, while I think hell is real I do not think it is the best to go around and tell children about Christianity by focusing on hell and scaring them into believing. I think the Christian message is easy to present in a positive way such that one is not scaring them into belief just like I think one can teach a child that murder is not an appropriate behavior without trying to scare them into not doing it because the will be executed. In both cases, while the consequences can be discussed, the focus would not be on that but on the positive. The difference would be like the difference between a malevolent dictator who rules by fear and a benevolent king that encourages the positive. You clearly see the God of the Bible as the former, I see Him as the latter.

Scented Nectar...do you think it is wrong for parents to teach children what they believe?

[Minimalist]

"Hell" as we know it in the mythology seems to be largely a mistranslation of various Greek and Hebrew words.

This mis-translation was political....not accidental.

http://www.godsplanforall.com/mistranslationstomeanhell

In the original Hebrew manuscripts, the Hebrew word sheol occurs 65 times in the Old Testament, and it means the grave (the place of the dead) or the pit, as correctly translated by the KJV in 34 out of the 65 times it occurs in the Old Testament. However, shockingly and without any justification whatsoever, the KJV translates sheol 31 out of the 65 times to mean hell. As we have seen from the comparison table, most Bible versions reject the Latin Vulgate and the KJV interpretations of the Hebrew word sheol to mean hell.



The Greek word hades occurs 11 times in the original Greek manuscripts of the New Testament and it is the direct equivalent of the Hebrew word sheol, thus it also means the grave (the place of the dead) or the pit. Once again, the KJV translators have carried forward the errors of the Latin Vulgate by translating hades 10 times to mean hell and only one time to mean the grave.



The Greek word tartarus occurs only once in the original manuscripts of the New Testament and it means a prison of spiritual darkness, which all fallen angels are confined to until their final judgement in the Lake of Fire, as explained in Chapter 18. Tartarus does not mean a place of eternal torment in hell for fallen angels. Translators of the KJV and some other versions of the Bible have erred once again by copying the mistakes of the Latin Vulgate by translating tartarus to mean hell.

[chasm]

Even if you think that word is too extreme, or means something more specific to war, or whatever, there is still the issue of the religion causing fear of doing nonharmful things like thoughts, for instance not actively thinking 'love' thoughts (worship, prayer, adoration, etc) about someone (your xtian god) when ORDERED to, gets punished with eternal torture. That is cruel and unfair, unlike warnings against doing harmful things like murder. Also, the punishment is not real, whereas jail/execution for murder is real. Same with the fact that there is no god reading the kid's mind constantly as threatened, unlike witnesses/clues/evidence/forensics/autopsies seeing that a murder has been done.

Cruel and unfair? That, of course, either presupposes some objective standard of fairness and cruelty or is merely your opinion.

The punishment is not real? And you "know" this how? You may not believe it is real.

Don't get me wrong Scented Nectar, while I think hell is real I do not think it is the best to go around and tell children about Christianity by focusing on hell and scaring them into believing. I think the Christian message is easy to present in a positive way such that one is not scaring them into belief just like I think one can teach a child that murder is not an appropriate behavior without trying to scare them into not doing it because the will be executed. In both cases, while the consequences can be discussed, the focus would not be on that but on the positive. The difference would be like the difference between a malevolent dictator who rules by fear and a benevolent king that encourages the positive. You clearly see the God of the Bible as the former, I see Him as the latter.

Scented Nectar...do you think it is wrong for parents to teach children what they believe?

Just because you believe something is real, doesn't mean it is. So you can stop that "How do you know it's fake? Just cause you don't believe..." shit.

"The difference would be like the difference between a malevolent dictator who rules by fear and a benevolent king that encourages the positive." Well if that's the difference, then you have to scare them into believing just like God does. "If you don't believe in me you will burn forever!" No, that's not trying to scare people into belief AT ALL.

[downbeatplumb]

Scented Nectar...do you think it is wrong for parents to teach children what they believe?

Personaly I think indoctrinating children with any religion is tantamount to child abuse.

If you should teach them anything its how to use rationality and logic, teach them how to think not what to think.

Let them decide for themselves when they are able to understand, don't infect their minds with what you believe, let them make their own decision.

[rjh4 is back]

Just because you believe something is real, doesn't mean it is.

Quite true. But it is also true that just because you think something is not real doesn't mean it isn't.

Well if that's the difference, then you have to scare them into believing just like God does. "If you don't believe in me you will burn forever!" No, that's not trying to scare people into belief AT ALL.

I'm not sure I get what you are trying to say. Have you read the Bible? If so, did you find more teachings of how God loves us or the kind of teaching as you portray? I find the former. I do not see the Bible as using scare tactics as you would put it. I'm not saying that it does not indicate that certain things might result in certain consequences, but I fail to see that as the focus. Nor do I see any teachings or suggestions that we use scare tactics to present the Gospel (Good News). I am also not saying that Christian's do not use such scare tactics. I'm sure they do. As I said, I do not think it is appropriate. I just do not see it as a reason for condemning all Christians or Christianity.

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Personaly I think indoctrinating children with any religion is tantamount to child abuse.

If you should teach them anything its how to use rationality and logic, teach them how to think not what to think.

Let them decide for themselves when they are able to understand, don't infect their minds with what you believe, let them make their own decision.

Please explain how you personally would distinguish between telling your children what you belive while allowing them to make their own decision and indoctrinating them.

Isn't teaching them how to use rationality and logic indoctrinating them also? If not, why? It seems to me one could easily look at whatever a child is being taught and if it is not what that one believes, claim that it is "indoctrination" and, therefore, "tantamount to child abuse". It also seems to me that whenever one group sees that another teaches their children something they do not agree with, it is labelled as indoctrination and/or child abuse.

Also, please explain to me how I can somehow force a child into making a decision to follow Christianity. Personally, I do not think it is possible. I do think that whether or not a person becomes a Christian is a personal issue and that I cannot make such a decision for my children. So while I do teach them from a Christian perspective, I also teach them that they must make their own decision on the matter. The only thing that I think one could do is scare them into professing a certain belief when they really don't believe it. But in my opinion, professing to be a Christian without really believing is totally useless and, therefore, I would not do this.

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The Greek word tartarus occurs only once in the original manuscripts of the New Testament and it means a prison of spiritual darkness, which all fallen angels are confined to until their final judgement in the Lake of Fire, as explained in Chapter 18.

Min, could you please elaborate on the "Lake of Fire" and your position on that?