Proselytizing

[chasm]

Well if that's the difference, then you have to scare them into believing just like God does. "If you don't believe in me you will burn forever!" No, that's not trying to scare people into belief AT ALL.

I'm not sure I get what you are trying to say. Have you read the Bible? If so, did you find more teachings of how God loves us or the kind of teaching as you portray? I find the former. I do not see the Bible as using scare tactics as you would put it. I'm not saying that it does not indicate that certain things might result in certain consequences, but I fail to see that as the focus. Nor do I see any teachings or suggestions that we use scare tactics to present the Gospel (Good News). I am also not saying that Christian's do not use such scare tactics. I'm sure they do. As I said, I do not think it is appropriate. I just do not see it as a reason for condemning all Christians or Christianity.

"You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me." (one of the Ten Commandments, as found on Wikipedia).

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (Jn.3:36)

"But the cowardly, unbelieving.... and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Rev.21:8)

And yes, Christians do use scare tactics, and it's annoying. You don't want me telling you that half of your life is going to be wasted believing, worshiping, and praying to an invisible sky god, and I don't want you telling me I'm going to burn in an imaginary place because I don't agree with you. (The you isn't you [rjh4] specifically, just a way getting my point across).

[downbeatplumb]

[/quote]

Please explain how you personally would distinguish between telling your children what you belive while allowing them to make their own decision and indoctrinating them.

You mean you dont know!!

Isn't teaching them how to use rationality and logic indoctrinating them also? If not, why?

Its the difference between
A:telling a child theres an elephant in the kitchin and B: telling them to go and see if theres an elephant in the kitchin
see how simple that is.
A: is indoctrination because it imposing a view with the strong possibility that it is unfounded(it is very unlikely that there is in fact and elephant in your kitchin).
B: Is showing asking the child to go and check for itself, it is not imposing a view parse but asking that the child go see and make up its own mind.

It seems to me one could easily look at whatever a child is being taught and if it is not what that one believes, claim that it is "indoctrination" and, therefore, "tantamount to child abuse". It also seems to me that whenever one group sees that another teaches their children something they do not agree with, it is labelled as indoctrination and/or child abuse.

You are about to equate atheism with a religion sometime soon arent ya I can see it coming on.

Also, please explain to me how I can somehow force a child into making a decision to follow Christianity. Personally, I do not think it is possible. I do think that whether or not a person becomes a Christian is a personal issue and that I cannot make such a decision for my children. So while I do teach them from a Christian perspective, I also teach them that they must make their own decision on the matter. The only thing that I think one could do is scare them into professing a certain belief when they really don't believe it. But in my opinion, professing to be a Christian without really believing is totally useless and, therefore, I would not do this.

---

[quote='Minimalist' pid='77726' dateline='1278090277']
[quote]

Well lets see you are a potent force in a young childs life, when they are young they believe what you say without question. I myself used to believe in santa because my parents told me he was real, (the spell was broken by my older sister when I was about seven) but imagine if no-one had broken that spell, maybe I'd still believe the lie. Thats christianity, santa for adults.

Really I'd of thought you could have worked some of this out for yourself. Oh well.

[rjh4 is back]

"You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me." (one of the Ten Commandments, as found on Wikipedia).

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (Jn.3:36)

"But the cowardly, unbelieving.... and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Rev.21:8)

Why not quote some of the ones talking about God's love? Too many? (No need to really respond to the questions as they are intended as friendly pokes.) I know the consequences are there but so is the positive.

And yes, Christians do use scare tactics, and it's annoying. You don't want me telling you that half of your life is going to be wasted believing, worshiping, and praying to an invisible sky god, and I don't want you telling me I'm going to burn in an imaginary place because I don't agree with you. (The you isn't you [rjh4] specifically, just a way getting my point across).

I understand. As I said before, I do not think it appropriate nor do I try to use such scare tactics.

[chasm]

"You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me." (one of the Ten Commandments, as found on Wikipedia).

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (Jn.3:36)

"But the cowardly, unbelieving.... and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Rev.21:8)

Why not quote some of the ones talking about God's love? Too many? (No need to really respond to the questions as they are intended as friendly pokes.) I know the consequences are there but so is the positive.

Why not face the fact that I was right? I'm not saying there isn't positive, my point is that you said "I do not see the Bible as using scare tactics" and it clearly does.

[rjh4 is back]

You mean you dont know!!

Isn't teaching them how to use rationality and logic indoctrinating them also? If not, why?

Its the difference between
A:telling a child theres an elephant in the kitchin and B: telling them to go and see if theres an elephant in the kitchin
see how simple that is.
A: is indoctrination because it imposing a view with the strong possibility that it is unfounded(it is very unlikely that there is in fact and elephant in your kitchin).
B: Is showing asking the child to go and check for itself, it is not imposing a view parse but asking that the child go see and make up its own mind.

I think this is a case of redefining a word to your own liking and applying it to your own liking. According to Dictionary.com

in·doc·tri·nate 
1. to instruct in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., esp. to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view.
2. to teach or inculcate.
3. to imbue with learning.

So why can't this apply to anything an atheist or anyone else teaches their children? For example, isn't teaching children that the scientific method is the only rational way to discover truth instructing them in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., esp. to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view? The fact is that even the most well meaning person has their biases which are sure to come through when dealing with other people and/or teaching their children.

I think you just would like to use the negative connotation and apply it to "religious" folk but not recognize that it applies to you also.

You are about to equate atheism with a religion sometime soon arent ya I can see it coming on.

Nope. I don't see how whether or not atheism is a "religion" would be relevant to the discussion.

Well lets see you are a potent force in a young childs life, when they are young they believe what you say without question. I myself used to believe in santa because my parents told me he was real, (the spell was broken by my older sister when I was about seven) but imagine if no-one had broken that spell, maybe I'd still believe the lie. Thats christianity, santa for adults.

Really I'd of thought you could have worked some of this out for yourself. Oh well.

We were talking about "indoctrination". You seem to be suggesting that atheist parents can somehow mask their biases such that their teaching of their children would not be "indoctrination". I fail to see this as a well supported position (if, in fact, it is your position).

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Why not face the fact that I was right? I'm not saying there isn't positive, my point is that you said "I do not see the Bible as using scare tactics" and it clearly does.

lol

Because I do not equate the mentioning or stating of consequences as being "scare tactics". That is my position.

On the other hand, if it is your position that when one mentions a negative consequence to an action when explaining an issue (such as explaining that you should not murder because you will be executed), I can certainly understand your position.

[Paul the Human]

Because I do not equate the mentioning or stating of consequences as being "scare tactics". That is my position.

On the other hand, if it is your position that when one mentions a negative consequence to an action when explaining an issue (such as explaining that you should not murder because you will be executed), I can certainly understand your position.

That is a scare tactic. Don't commit murder or we'll kill you. How is that not a scare tactic? Now, saying... Don't commit murder because killing another person is wrong... is simply an expression of ethics and values... or morality, if you prefer.

Murder and we'll kill you = Murder and you'll burn in eternal hell. Both scare tactics.

[rjh4 is back]

That is a scare tactic. Don't commit murder or we'll kill you. How is that not a scare tactic? Now, saying... Don't commit murder because killing another person is wrong... is simply an expression of ethics and values... or morality, if you prefer.

Murder and we'll kill you = Murder and you'll burn in eternal hell. Both scare tactics.

What if it is merely part of the overall discussion? You are focusing on the discussion only being the "scare tactic". I see consequences as part of the relevant discussion of the issue considering that actions do have consequences.

If you see it as a scare tactic then that is fine.

"Murder and you'll burn in eternal hell"?????? Maybe we see "Christianity" differently. According to the Bible, David murdered Uriah (husband of Bathsheba) but there is no indication that David will be burning in eternal hell.

[chasm]

Why not face the fact that I was right? I'm not saying there isn't positive, my point is that you said "I do not see the Bible as using scare tactics" and it clearly does.

lol

Because I do not equate the mentioning or stating of consequences as being "scare tactics". That is my position.

On the other hand, if it is your position that when one mentions a negative consequence to an action when explaining an issue (such as explaining that you should not murder because you will be executed), I can certainly understand your position.

That is a sleazy move that most Christians make when they are wrong. Just because the Bible does not say the exact words "scare tactics", that does not mean, under any circumstances, that the Bible doesn't use scare tactics. Spoiler alert: IT DOES!

"Such as explaining that you should not murder because you will be executed." That's another scare tactic.

And if you need to know, here's the definition of scare tactic:

Word: scare tactic
Part of Speech: n
Definition: the strategy of using fear to influence a person or persons reaction

The Bible has scare tactics. And you not admitting just makes me feel more right. Of course, I understand why you wouldn't want to admit it. You'd be proven wrong and then God wouldn't be so fluffy and loving anymore. That's cool. You know, we'll see how fluffy and loving God is when you go to hell for blatantly lying about what's in the Gospel's, of all things.

[rjh4 is back]

Why not face the fact that I was right? I'm not saying there isn't positive, my point is that you said "I do not see the Bible as using scare tactics" and it clearly does.

lol

Because I do not equate the mentioning or stating of consequences as being "scare tactics". That is my position.

On the other hand, if it is your position that when one mentions a negative consequence to an action when explaining an issue (such as explaining that you should not murder because you will be executed), I can certainly understand your position.

That is a sleazy move that most Christians make when they are wrong. Just because the Bible does not say the exact words "scare tactics", that does not mean, under any circumstances, that the Bible doesn't use scare tactics. Spoiler alert: IT DOES!

"Such as explaining that you should not murder because you will be executed." That's another scare tactic.

And if you need to know, here's the definition of scare tactic:

Word: scare tactic
Part of Speech: n
Definition: the strategy of using fear to influence a person or persons reaction

The Bible has scare tactics. And you not admitting just makes me feel more right. Of course, I understand why you wouldn't want to admit it. You'd be proven wrong and then God wouldn't be so fluffy and loving anymore. That's cool. You know, we'll see how fluffy and loving God is when you go to hell for blatantly lying about what's in the Gospel's, of all things.

You know, I did not say you were wrong, nor did I say I was right. I merely said I view it differently but that I did understand your position.

Soooo.....on that note....I will say....have a nice day, Chasm.

[Scented Nectar]

Even if you think that word is too extreme, or means something more specific to war, or whatever, there is still the issue of the religion causing fear of doing nonharmful things like thoughts, for instance not actively thinking 'love' thoughts (worship, prayer, adoration, etc) about someone (your xtian god) when ORDERED to, gets punished with eternal torture. That is cruel and unfair, unlike warnings against doing harmful things like murder. Also, the punishment is not real, whereas jail/execution for murder is real. Same with the fact that there is no god reading the kid's mind constantly as threatened, unlike witnesses/clues/evidence/forensics/autopsies seeing that a murder has been done.

Cruel and unfair? That, of course, either presupposes some objective standard of fairness and cruelty or is merely your opinion.

Guess what? I get to have an opinion of godboy. I even get to have a bad opinion of him, what he would be like if real that is. Guess what? He's a cruel shithead, if your holy book is to be believed. Fucking mental case, actually. Demands you to think nice things about him. Worship, praise, adoration, letting him into your heart, accepting him, blah blah blabbity blah. You even think he reads your mind all the time, so I'll bet anything that you do indeed think nice things about him, and I'll bet you even try and talk yourself into believing you are doing it because you WANT to. Lucky it happens to be exactly what you think he's ordered you to do, eh?

The punishment is not real? And you "know" this how? You may not believe it is real.

The same way that you know Neverland is not real, and Valhalla is not real, and Buddhist reincarnation is not real, etc. With that argument, why aren't you a deist instead of specifically a christian? How do you know any of the other god's afterlife rewards and punishments aren't real? How do you know that magical dragons don't use dead christians for stove fuel all because they never read enough sci fi while alive? You can make up an infinity of possiblities, even if a reward/punishment afterlife and a god are requirements. Why don't you believe in the others just in case?

Don't get me wrong Scented Nectar, while I think hell is real I do not think it is the best to go around and tell children about Christianity by focusing on hell and scaring them into believing. I think the Christian message is easy to present in a positive way such that one is not scaring them into belief just like I think one can teach a child that murder is not an appropriate behavior without trying to scare them into not doing it because the will be executed. In both cases, while the consequences can be discussed, the focus would not be on that but on the positive. The difference would be like the difference between a malevolent dictator who rules by fear and a benevolent king that encourages the positive. You clearly see the God of the Bible as the former, I see Him as the latter.

Then why did he make up the whole hell punishment in the first place? Why did he not eliminate sin and anything else offensive to him when he created everything? Seems kind of silly to create an enemy you can't quickly squash. What positive has he encouraged? Is it the killing of babies of nonbelievers? Is it the killing of people for many nonharmful 'crimes'? Is it the mindfuck of blame for someone else's disobedience (everyone blamed for Eve eating an apple, many cases of children punished for their parents' transgressions)? Is it the demands of thought control, love me or else I'll torture you? Think about this stuff. Why are you such a god fan? Relief and thanks at being told you're good for following commands, and that you'll not be punished?

Scented Nectar...do you think it is wrong for parents to teach children what they believe?

If the belief has no validity to it and causes mental trauma, like in the case of hell belief, it is very wrong.

If there was no reward or punishment aspects to the afterlife you believe in, would you still follow the commands that do no harm to break? The thought commands to pray and worship and love your god? The commands not to worship any other ideas of god, etc?