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RE: Atheists who have converted to theism?
January 8, 2016 at 10:55 pm
(January 8, 2016 at 10:43 pm)wallym Wrote: (January 6, 2016 at 8:00 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: Oh ya I understand the whole morals from god theory, my issue was with him saying he was an atheist for week but couldn't shake the idea that his morality came from god. That's like going on a diet and saying " that diet didn't work for me, I followed the instructions but still continued to eat whatever I wanted."
As someone who went through something similar, it doesn't all fall apart immediately. You believe God is necessary to morality. You stop believing in God. The next step is to stop believing in morality, but you have to think it through. It's not instantaneous. I'm putting words in his mouth, but I believe that's where his disbelief came to an end (or his belief in no God came to an end).
Myself, I got rid of God. Then morality. Then value, free will, meaning, etc... And it wasn't done in a week. If you even bother thinking about it, you have to undo each belief one by one.
I'm still adding and subtracting beliefs stemming from no longer believing in God which happened about a decade ago.
Stop believing in morality? I'm not sure what you mean?
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RE: Atheists who have converted to theism?
January 9, 2016 at 1:30 am
(This post was last modified: January 9, 2016 at 1:32 am by henryp.)
(January 8, 2016 at 10:55 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: (January 8, 2016 at 10:43 pm)wallym Wrote: As someone who went through something similar, it doesn't all fall apart immediately. You believe God is necessary to morality. You stop believing in God. The next step is to stop believing in morality, but you have to think it through. It's not instantaneous. I'm putting words in his mouth, but I believe that's where his disbelief came to an end (or his belief in no God came to an end).
Myself, I got rid of God. Then morality. Then value, free will, meaning, etc... And it wasn't done in a week. If you even bother thinking about it, you have to undo each belief one by one.
I'm still adding and subtracting beliefs stemming from no longer believing in God which happened about a decade ago.
Stop believing in morality? I'm not sure what you mean?
I meant objective morality. Although, I did end up thinking subjective morality is also nonsense as well now that I think free will is imaginary. It's a lot of dominos falling one after the other, but there is often long periods of time between them tipping over as our brains try to work out the details.
A semantic question:
If I said rocks can behave immorally, you'd say you don't believe that. But if I said my subjective morality includes the behavior of rocks. You'd think that was stupid. But since it's subjective, even though my subjective view is dumb as shit, you'd still say you believe in morality for rocks as it exists subjectively?
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RE: Atheists who have converted to theism?
January 9, 2016 at 12:10 pm
(January 9, 2016 at 1:30 am)wallym Wrote: (January 8, 2016 at 10:55 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: Stop believing in morality? I'm not sure what you mean?
I meant objective morality. Although, I did end up thinking subjective morality is also nonsense as well now that I think free will is imaginary. It's a lot of dominos falling one after the other, but there is often long periods of time between them tipping over as our brains try to work out the details.
A semantic question:
If I said rocks can behave immorally, you'd say you don't believe that. But if I said my subjective morality includes the behavior of rocks. You'd think that was stupid. But since it's subjective, even though my subjective view is dumb as shit, you'd still say you believe in morality for rocks as it exists subjectively? Right but my issue was with him saying he was an atheist but could not see how morality could exist without god. That to me is a contradiction, you cannot believe that god doesn't exist and at the same time believe he is responsible for your moral choices.
I don't understand what your asking in your question?
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RE: Atheists who have converted to theism?
January 9, 2016 at 12:30 pm
(This post was last modified: January 9, 2016 at 12:31 pm by henryp.)
(January 9, 2016 at 12:10 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: Right but my issue was with him saying he was an atheist but could not see how morality could exist without god. That to me is a contradiction, you cannot believe that god doesn't exist and at the same time believe he is responsible for your moral choices. I think the contradiction you are identifying may be the reason why he discontinued his disbelief. If you can't get rid of your belief in morality, and you think morality can only come from God, you have to go back to believing in God.
That's why I was pointing out that it is not instantaneous. While tearing down your belief system, you're going to, for a while, believe a lot of contradictory things until you analyze those beliefs. Eventually if you're working on it, you'll either dump the contradictory things, or be forced to reassess the initial change.
It's not uncommon for people to believe contradictory things for a while, even knowingly. You just have to toss the two contradictory ideas into the mental thunderdome, see which comes out on top, and then reevaluate. But that can take days, months, years, decades, or never happen. So the idea, to me, of having contradictory beliefs for a week seems like a non-issue.
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RE: Atheists who have converted to theism?
January 9, 2016 at 12:42 pm
Quote:“Alice laughed. 'There's no use trying,' she said. 'One can't believe impossible things.'
I daresay you haven't had much practice,' said the Queen. 'When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast. There goes the shawl again!”
-Lewis Carrol
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Atheists who have converted to theism?
January 9, 2016 at 12:45 pm
(January 9, 2016 at 12:30 pm)wallym Wrote: (January 9, 2016 at 12:10 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: Right but my issue was with him saying he was an atheist but could not see how morality could exist without god. That to me is a contradiction, you cannot believe that god doesn't exist and at the same time believe he is responsible for your moral choices. I think the contradiction you are identifying may be the reason why he discontinued his disbelief. If you can't get rid of your belief in morality, and you think morality can only come from God, you have to go back to believing in God.
That's why I was pointing out that it is not instantaneous. While tearing down your belief system, you're going to, for a while, believe a lot of contradictory things until you analyze those beliefs. Eventually if you're working on it, you'll either dump the contradictory things, or be forced to reassess the initial change.
It's not uncommon for people to believe contradictory things for a while, even knowingly. You just have to toss the two contradictory ideas into the mental thunderdome, see which comes out on top, and then reevaluate. But that can take days, months, years, decades, or never happen. So the idea, to me, of having contradictory beliefs for a week seems like a non-issue. I disagree, I would argue he never stopped believing in the existence of god if he never stopped believing god was responsible for morality. Even if he was trying to just make a case for objective morality, to make the leap to god requires you to believe that god exists and is capable.
The path to not believing in god is not instantaneous, believe me I know, but I didn't start at the end. I didn't come to the conclusion that god doesn't exist first, when I started to realize that god wasn't responsible for morality, good, evil, finding my car keys, etc... was the beginning of the de-conversion and the domino effect of beliefs with last domino falling being the existence of god.
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RE: Atheists who have converted to theism?
January 9, 2016 at 12:57 pm
(January 9, 2016 at 12:45 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: (January 9, 2016 at 12:30 pm)wallym Wrote: I think the contradiction you are identifying may be the reason why he discontinued his disbelief. If you can't get rid of your belief in morality, and you think morality can only come from God, you have to go back to believing in God.
That's why I was pointing out that it is not instantaneous. While tearing down your belief system, you're going to, for a while, believe a lot of contradictory things until you analyze those beliefs. Eventually if you're working on it, you'll either dump the contradictory things, or be forced to reassess the initial change.
It's not uncommon for people to believe contradictory things for a while, even knowingly. You just have to toss the two contradictory ideas into the mental thunderdome, see which comes out on top, and then reevaluate. But that can take days, months, years, decades, or never happen. So the idea, to me, of having contradictory beliefs for a week seems like a non-issue. I disagree, I would argue he never stopped believing in the existence of god if he never stopped believing god was responsible for morality. Even if he was trying to just make a case for objective morality, to make the leap to god requires you to believe that god exists and is capable.
The path to not believing in god is not instantaneous, believe me I know, but I didn't start at the end. I didn't come to the conclusion that god doesn't exist first, when I started to realize that god wasn't responsible for morality, good, evil, finding my car keys, etc... was the beginning of the de-conversion and the domino effect of beliefs with last domino falling being the existence of god.
It happens differently for different people. My disbelief in God arose from something unrelated to morality/good/evil/etc...
I stopped believing in God. I still believed morality required a God, so I stopped believing in morality. For a little while there, I believed in morality that came from God, and no God.
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RE: Atheists who have converted to theism?
January 9, 2016 at 12:58 pm
Perhaps people come to and fall away from faith for a variety of disparate reasons.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Atheists who have converted to theism?
January 9, 2016 at 1:12 pm
(January 9, 2016 at 12:58 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Perhaps people come to and fall away from faith for a variety of disparate reasons.
There certainly is no shortage of reasons.
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RE: Atheists who have converted to theism?
January 11, 2016 at 12:34 am
/UnpopularOpinion/
As an Atheist, I think that Atheists can be converted, Ergo brainwashed, into or back into Christianity.
I am not going to be an Optimist in this case and say that Atheists are immune to Religion.
I will be a Realist.
The same way there are converts into Scientology, across major religions and similar cults, Atheists can be brainwashed through rather simple methods such as Repetition of a Chant.
Realist? Pessimist? It doesn't matter. This is completely factual.
Now, are there really as many converted Atheists as Christians say they were once Atheists?
I doubt it.
Atheists are a minority, while these Born Again Christians almost seem to be in a majority.
/UnpopularOpinion/
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