Another raaaaaaaaaape!!!

[Edwardo Piet]

My position appears to 100% coincide with SC's.

I agree 100% with every word you said SC, I believe you made my points for me far clearer and more eloquently than I ever could have.

[*Deidre*]

I think you can make two statements at the same time and not be contradictory.

#1 - She is not to blame whatsoever, and the rapist deserves the full punishment allowed for violent rape.

#2 - Moving forward in everyone's life: predators exist. They are out there and they will take advantage of any power differential to get what they want. Being aware of this and living your life in such a way as to acknowledge these risks is something everyone should do.

There is a time and a place for that second conversation. And it's not right after a person experiences a rape. And maybe it's not for any of us to have with her. Maybe her therapist could work through how she can set up more appropriate boundaries in order to reduce the risk of this happening again, not as a way to excoriate her in any fashion for what occurred here.

I think you can say those two things, and still be on her side. That man is a predator. He violently raped her, and should be put away for a long time. She also could have better protected herself. But I would only say that when talking about this from the outside, I would never say that second part to this woman, because it wouldn't help her. I would say this to a friend or my daughter (in the future) if we were discussing this in a vacuum.

Saying "she could have better protected herself" is not the same as saying "she is partly to blame."

Well said.

[GrandizerII]

I understand both sides here, but I think it's a matter of empathy. The point that matters is that she got raped. Assigning any blame to her for anything that led to her being raped, even if (and I emphasize the word "if") the assignment of blame was logical, does nothing but further harm to the victim. Someone who just got raped doesn't want people telling them why she allowed such a thing to happen but to be supported, and part of supporting her is assuring her repeatedly that it was never her fault for the rape. I'm guessing many victims of rape already wish the rape never happened anyway, so it's at best pointless to remind them of what else they should have done instead.

[MTL]

I will weigh in, as a rape victim myself.


I was date-raped when I was 15.  I was a virgin.  It was my first time.

The rapist was my then-boyfriend.


I did get myself into a sexual situation,
making out, fooling around with him.

Of course I did.  I was 15, and he was my boyfriend!

That does NOT mean I was "stupid".

True, I was young, inexperienced, naive;

But I STILL had every right to BE in that situation,


....and I ALSO had every right to STOP IT.


He was NOT drunk at the time;

but, had he been drunk,

does that make it wrong or "stupid" of me to consent to make out with him,
and then choose to try to stop things from going further?

Does that mean that if I get raped, it is my fault?

I should be able to make out with my boyfriend, without being necessarily expected to put out;
And I should even be able to make out with him if he has been drinking,
without risk of being raped.


If he rapes me, his being drunk does NOT excuse his actions,
nor does it make me "stupid".

It just makes him a rapist.

However, I will readily agree that ANY situation where there is drugs or alcohol,
can get out of control, and people everywhere should be wise about their safety...of course.

I've been in situations with drunken female friends where I ended up getting blamed for their unacceptable behavior,
and it was nothing to do with sex!

I have been drunk, myself, and regretted my choices, actions, and words, the next day.

But being drunk has NEVER been any kind of an excuse for criminal or irresponsible behavior.

That's like blaming the victims of a drunk driver for being so stupid as to be out on the road, themselves, sober,
on a Friday or Saturday night,

because apparently it's the responsibility of sober people to stay out of the way of drunken, irresponsible people,
because we all know drunk people may decide to break the law and drive,
and it's understandable since they were drunk, at the time.

Why bother having laws, at all?

Why bother having a legal drinking age?



So when we say to people, women especially,
"don't get so wasted at the party that someone takes advantage of you"

it doesn't mean we blame you if you get raped.

RAPE IS NEVER THE FAULT OF ANYONE BUT THE RAPIST.   EVER.

If you are going to blame the victim in any way, shape, or form,
then we may as well make this country like some parts of the Middle East where a woman can be stoned to death for the crime of being a rape victim.

But what I, a rape victim, myself,
wills say to young women is this:

Stay as safe as you can."

NOT because,

"if you get raped because you were drunk / making out with the guy / got into his car / dressed provocatively, people will blame you "

...because anyone who says that is an idiot and an  asshole.

But because we simply don't want rape to happen.


And no matter how much people may be prepared to blame the rapist,

and no matter how badly he is punished for his crime;


...it won't change the fact that rape would now have become a part of your life story.

And that's what we're trying to prevent.

The majority of sexual assaults are someone the victim knows. 

And very often the victim did NOTHING that could have been said to "encourage" the assault,
and did NOTHING "stupid".

Since that risk exists, without your having made any errors in judgment, anyway,
then why fail to take every precaution you can to reduce your chances of getting raped?

[The Grand Nudger]

I don't understand.  If I'm in the shower with some random female...and she says "don't touch me there".....Imma say "cool..get out of my shower, you remember where the door is, right?"

 What two sides to this story are there?

[Jenny A]

I don't understand.  If I'm in the shower with some random female...and she says "don't touch me there".....Imma say "cool..get out of my shower, you remember where the door is, right?"

 What two sides to this story are there?

The side of people who care about the girl and therefore advise her not to get in a strange man's shower because many men are not like Rhythm. And punishing those men won't undo the rape she is risking. At best it might give the next guy more reason not to.

If one of my daughters did get in your shower, I'd know I'd failed her by failing to teach her basic street smarts.

[Tiberius]

It doesn't sound like he was a stranger though. She said she'd kissed him previously and had agreed to a shower together. Perhaps she eventually wanted a sexual relationship but not yet.

[paulpablo]

The story seems to be that a woman took a trip to south Africa, a guy was making advances on her who she rejected and who seemed drunk and then she accepted to join this person for a shower, he then forced her to her knees and then raped her til she passed out and so on.


I don't really see any complicated nuances to this story.  If the guy raped her then he raped her, I don't see how anyone will find proof of it since they were alone together, unless she has significant injuries and can prove he caused them.

No one should be blaming her but I don't think it's unreasonable to give her the advice that she should be more careful in future.

She was in the rape capital of the world, and accepted an invitation to go shower with a drunk guy who was making advances on her.

It just seems slightly strange to me that she is an activist against rape, I would have thought with knowing about rape and being so conscious of it happening she would have noticed the position she was putting herself in.

I think if anyone here would have been on the phone to her while this was happening, pretty much 100% of us would have said "No, that's a really bad idea to go join a guy who's making advances on you in a shower, unless you do want to have sex with him."

[Jenny A]

MTL,

I can play the rape victim card too. So? It gives neither of us more authority any more than mugging victims have more authority about mugging, which is against the law. Please don't enter a bad neighborhood late at night looking prosperous and carrying cash. If you do, don't follow a young man into an alley, and don't flash your cash. I'd still want to jail the guy who robs you, but I wouldn’t make you a poster child for educating people so they won't rob others.

[paulpablo]

It doesn't sound like he was a stranger though. She said she'd kissed him previously and had agreed to a shower together. Perhaps she eventually wanted a sexual relationship but not yet.

In the article it says she kissed the guy but he was drunk so she told him it was bad timing as she'd already met someone.

I don't know if that means she had actually got with another guy and therefore didn't want to be with the drunk guy or if she just said that to stop the drunk guy's advances.