Women's clothes?

[Edwardo Piet]

Quit it with the subjective "arguments" and "logic" based on personal experience, Pool.
i
There are statistics, and there is data and evidence of women still statistically being of lower wage, at the very least on average, than men.

Stop arguing from personal experience and stop arguing using the argument from ignorance.

Personal subjective experience is not evidence.

Ah, my bad, I should've posted sources. Here you go, just one among many others:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-gender-p...lete-myth/

Wow, I'm convinced... a CBS article. Now all the actual real evidence of pay inequality is completely shattered. I guess I should also stop listening to my common sense and ignore all the other inequality like women being told what they can't wear more than men are, women being called a "slut" (in a derogatory way) for being promiscuous while men are cheered on and called a "stud", and all the victim blaming that goes on (just for a few examples).

And it's funny how you completely ignore an article with actual evidence.

My opinion that it's often pointless debating people because they're so stubborn, their confirmation bias is too strong, and even if they did change their mind they probably wouldn't have the humility to admit it in open forum, is only being bolstered further still.

It really is like debating a creationist. You're believing what you want to believe.

[The Valkyrie]

So I also received a PM entitled 'advice' ftom a debater in this thread. I didn't bother reading it since unsolicited advice is not needwd or wanted.


Not going to bother to respond, either. I have better things to do with my time.

[Athene]

---

Holy shit. You're really committed to being an asshole, aren't you?  

The portion of your post that I bolded is blame-sharing, cut and dry. If you insist that women are partially responsible for being sexually assaulted, than you can't deny that you're also insisting that the criminal act of rape is, at least in part, excusable. 

So riddle me this: If you believe that the crime of rape is, at least in part, excusable-- what the fuck does that make you?

HINT: It makes you a rape apologist.

You came to this thread spouting your poisonous bullshit, without giving a thought to the impact your careless rhetoric could have on someone who is, or could be a victim of such a crime in the future; and you passed it off as guidance and enlightenment. You are wholly unqualified to illuminate the path for others in a cruel, dark world.

You are the fucking darkness.

---

How does discussing means at which a crime might be detoured make rape excusable.

Your logic is flawed there sweetie. Not my fault either.

Get over yourself.

You can make up stuff and draw false conclusions all you want, just don't assume (as you evidently really have a passion for) that I am advocating tape. It makes you look really desperate to paint me as some bad guy while you are the one calling people names and drawing faulty conclusions.

Again, I'm sorry you don't like the way I work things. To me political correctness is a disease. People get offended, it happens. If you think I'm going to avoid difficult to topics just incase I might hurt someone's feelings then you are sorely mistaken, much like you're mistaken about me in your assumption.

You seem fairly intelligent, so perhaps you had some traumatizing experience that has veiled your general perception. If that is the case then I am sorry for you, but I didn't do anything to you.

Perhaps we could attempt to be cordial to one another. From there, maybe you could explain your view were I could understand it. Maybe visa versa. But I do know that no one will learn anything while just throwing insults about.

So, what I'm saying is that I do apologize for offending you, and I will attempt to be less abrasive in communication with you. I hope that you are willing to set aside your bias as well.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

We've been over this several times, Rainman. Discussing risk minimization doesn't make rape excusable; assigning blame to the victim does. What's wrong with your brain?
 
I'm not assuming that you're advocating rape. You are excusing rape, by maintaining that men are unable to control their sexual urges when faced with the sight of exposed skin. You made that abundantly  clear when you likened a rape scenario to the average person's inability to resist free goodies being offered at the grocery store, AND when you pointed out the absurdity of placing a piece of raw meat in front of a dog, and expecting the dog not to wolf it down. 

So I'll freely admit to name-calling, Fucko. But drawing faulty conclusions? Hell, no. Your analogies clearly demonstrate that you believe that the impulse to rape and act of rape can be marked by legitimate reasons. You don't like being referred to as a rape apologist? Too bad, so sad. 

That's what you are.

And btw:

You seem fairly intelligent, so perhaps you had some traumatizing experience that has veiled your general perception. If that is the case then I am sorry for you, but I didn't do anything to you.

You may want to avoid using straw that's been pulled out of your ass when setting out to build a straw man, Pop's. 
Nice try, though. 

Save your other bullshit apologies for someone who actually believes you have an ounce of decency or sincerity. You're a disease, and I will continue to address you as such.

[Redbeard The Pink]

Man, people are about to get shitty with me about this.


The "wage gap" argument is one of the reasons you and I had that argument a while back about why "feminist" isn't a label I want. What you're describing is an "earnings gap," and there are lots of factors that play into it. Men tend to work more hours and take riskier jobs with more demands, hence the higher pay grades of those jobs. When women work those same jobs for the same hours, they make the same amount.


In pretty much all of the Western world, it is illegal to pay a woman less than a man for the same work, and the stats reflect that. Women as a broad group still earn less than men during their lifetimes, but women who make the same choices and work the same jobs as men make the same pay.


Yes, I'm sure that there are still instances where employers knowingly discriminate against women, but it's far from systemic, at least in America and its peer countries. The fact is that if you work like a man, you'll earn what a man earns nine times out of ten. The reason for the earnings gap is that there are lots of women in the numbers who either don't work at all or whose work suffers because of children and/or their choice of job and lifestyle.


Oh look, I seem to have lost my umbrella. 

Here's a link for you:
http://www.aauw.org/files/2015/09/The-Si...l-2015.pdf

Page 8 if you don't wish to read the whole thing.

That article seems to be describing a difference in earnings amongst similarly-educated college graduates, not the wages of males and females doing the same jobs. Again, that's an "earnings gap," not a "wage gap." Earning less than a similarly educated person and getting lower wages for doing the exact same job and hours are two different things.

[Redbeard The Pink]

We've been over this. Modesty does not "detour" rape, you sick, stupid fuck.


If there were a merciful god, he'd be keeping you away from the public.

If you think avoiding a scenario with a higher probability of crime is equivalent to putting yourself in harm's way then you are wrong.

Humility on a universal level would stop all crime.

Is it an idealistic view? Yes.

Is it a false statement? No.

Your name calling is not warranted, or productive towards understanding, or needed for understanding.

Any three year old can call names when they don't get their way. Definitely doesn't make then right though.



Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

You really just don't get it.


Dressing modestly isn't "avoiding a scenario with a higher probability of crime." No matter how you word it, there is no evidence to suggest that changing one's mode of dress will make them less likely to get raped. You might not like the name calling, but if you'd stop acting like an ignorant shit then I'd stop talking to you like one.

[I_am_not_mafia]

Seriously?



That's a HELL of a stretch in comparisons.

Was simply using an example you would relate to for discussion purposes, yes, it is a bit of a stretch, but it's not incorrect.

There's still no reason to assume there is a gender pay gap, unless it's been proven. It's not up to me, or him, to prove there isn't one. However, if I, or him were to initiate the discussion with "There is no gender pay gap" it then becomes a positive claim, and is up to whomever is making it, to prove so.

This is not the case though, when I responded to you claiming there is a gender pay gap, and you responded back telling others to "Prove there isn't one".

I've been paid less for doing the exact same job. I've been given the crap work while being more qualified and experienced while the man made noobie mistakes.

[I_am_not_mafia]

Irrational posted a good recent article on the pay gap on pg. 63 of this thread.

Okay and? One article doesn't magically change the rules of an argument. Also, I never stated there was no gender pay gap, I simply said based on the rules of an argument we are to assume there isn't one by default, because we have no reason to believe there is a gender pay gap in either direction(men, women), until proven so.

I will however, check the article out.

I think that what Pink said is important though. And that's that men tend to take different jobs than women, so it's hard to judge. Also I agree with her and highly doubt there is any instances where someone is directly getting paid less for the same exact job and hours based on gender, I mean that simply seems fallacious, it would be illegal surely, yet feminists act like it is common practice and accepted in society. No one would accept this. If this existed it would be very easy for women to take their pay check, then take their male co workers pay check, hold them up in comparison and point out the obvious differences and inequalities within them. I will look where the evidence points, obviously, nothing i'm saying is definite, however I think if you use some logic, it's not hard to see there may be some skewing of the statistics.

If we take what's been claimed many times as exactly what is true word for word, there would be numerous instances of women comparing their check to their co workers. Is it possible that they are comparing the same work from different states and it appears higher for men because of tax difference(because they are skewing the stat. and not showing men's as after tax and womens as before)? Is it possible that the stats are not exactly what they say and they are comparing people in the same line of work, from different positions? These are all questions I would raise out of logical reasoning, however again, I am not stating these as facts, and will look at the actual information and the validity of it to decide for myself.

Problem is that it is very difficult to prove that you are being paid less. First there is a taboo about revealing your wage. Secondly companies try to stop it happening. My last company had a clause in my contract saying that I could not reveal my wage.

[Redbeard The Pink]

Except wage gaps are still largely murky waters and debateable.

Ok, so can you provide an explanation for the unexplained portion of the difference in earnings between men and women?

No, but there's no need to. That's an earnings gap between similarly educated people, not a wage gap between people doing the same job.


Here's my real issue: "unexplained" means exactly that. When people talk about a "pay gap," they simply throw around figures for the earnings gap and insist that the unexplained part of this gap exists because of pay discrimination against women. The problem with that is that if you don't have enough information to explain why the numbers are like that, inserting any answer is technically an argument from ignorance.


"The study can't explain that 7-12% discrepancy between the earnings of similarly educated men and women, so that discrepancy must exist because women are getting paid less than men to do the same jobs."


We don't accept that reasoning from Theists, so why do some of us accept it when it comes to the "pay gap?"

[I_am_not_mafia]

So you make a very vague statement and then expect us to believe you? That's not very convincing - for all I know you could be lying to get ahead of in the debate. You don't have to give your friends names or anything personal on that level, I'm sure you can give us information while still holding their identity in the dark. Details like which country, state they are working in and details like which company they are working for will not enable us to identify your friends even if we wanted.

UK and Germany in IT. I have a PhD, MSc, BSc, lots of experience and no children.

[ErGingerbreadMandude]

So you make a very vague statement and then expect us to believe you? That's not very convincing - for all I know you could be lying to get ahead of in the debate. You don't have to give your friends names or anything personal on that level, I'm sure you can give us information while still holding their identity in the dark. Details like which country, state they are working in and details like which company they are working for will not enable us to identify your friends even if we wanted.

UK and Germany in IT. I have a PhD, MSc, BSc, lots of experience and no children.

What?
Are you telling me that there is discrimination against women in UK and Germany in the IT sector?