The Ultimate Value and the signs of it in ourselves.

[robvalue]

Haha, that was great!

Was it a stooge or just a volunteer kid?

If it's real, it seems like manipulating people with that thing must be a bit too easy.

[LadyForCamus]

Haha, that was great!

Was it a stooge or just a volunteer kid?

If it's real, it seems like manipulating people with that thing must be a bit too easy.

Lol, I'm pretty sure they are sincere answers from the kids. Too easy for sure; I wonder if it would be so easy to manipulate an adult in such a manner. But then again, I guess that's sort of how false confessions are generated.

[robvalue]

Yeah, it would depend on the adult. Some people are incredibly impressionable, so I could believe it.

[Mystic]

We so honest that we don't even acknowledge humans have an actual value independent of our opinions. Yup. This is what intellectual honesty leads to. Right. 

And do not be like those who neglected God so he made them neglect themselves

[LadyForCamus]

We so honest that we don't even acknowledge humans have an actual value independent of our opinions. Yup. This is what intellectual honesty leads to. Right. 

And do not be like those who neglected God so he made them neglect themselves

We value each other, and we value ourselves. Why shouldn't that be enough?

[The Grand Nudger]

Yes, Mystic...that's what intellectual honesty leads us too....that you sneer at such honesty is disturbing.  That we have no value apart from the value we assign to ourselves and others is precisely -why- we might, as humans, might want to assign value to ourselves and others....and precisely why it's important that we do so.  

Because no one and no thing else is doing it. Either -you- and your peers value your life, or it has none. Full stop. Pointing to a non-existent god as the only possible source for value is simply conceding that you have none.

[henryp]

People have various views of right or wrong, but the fact they have views of it, says they all believe there is right or wrong. Now obviously we aren't going about the right way to discover objectively what we ought to praise or condemn, but, for sure, people would not have the view of right or wrong without belief that objective moral facts exist.

Perhaps, we are programmed to believe in things that aren't real?  I think that explains a lot of the contradictions in behavior vs. belief in many people.  I can say I don't believe in right and wrong, but I will still inevitably behave according to generic ideas of right and wrong, because that stuff has been socially engineered into my brain my entire life, on top of any biological inclinations towards the ideas that evolution may have dumped on me.

And the programming is strong enough, that'll I refer to things as right and wrong, even though I know those things don't exist.  That really goes for many perceptions I have of the world around me.  The illusion is so strong, that I lack the ability to dismiss it even though I know it is an illusion.  Brains are weird like that.

[Mystic]

So Hitler assigns a value to himself. I guess that's his value. Or it what value him to be that, that is his value too. Or right, there is none really but let's just assign value anyways! So in this approach do we really assign value or disbelieve in the true value to humans? I don't see any real assigning value except lip service to the very fact we by our nature do so automatically.

It's wrong because it's double think. It's dishonest approach to who we are and the knowledge we been given.

To deny the sacred, you are willing to go as far as to deny yourself having an actual value independent of what you assign yourself or what other assign you.

I never once saw one person here enthusiastic to hear a proof of God or ways we can know God. Everyone takes in a way with a negative attitude with no iota of enthusiasm to want God to be true or a way to know it's truth.

[Mystic]

People have various views of right or wrong, but the fact they have views of it, says they all believe there is right or wrong. Now obviously we aren't going about the right way to discover objectively what we ought to praise or condemn, but, for sure, people would not have the view of right or wrong without belief that objective moral facts exist.

Perhaps, we are programmed to believe in things that aren't real?  

Or perhaps we been given knowledge of unseen pleasures and a path. What is delusional about you having a value independant of what you think of yourself. What is it that will make it a delusion? Is that it requires a Creator, a source of the value, or maintainer or one who sees you or is that the feeling one day we will see who we truly are something that makes it false? Or is that we must have a soul that makes it an illusion?

[The Grand Nudger]

Eva loved Hitler, Hitlers mother loved Hitler.  I wouldn't have pissed on him had I come across him burning in that ditch.  Yes, that's his value.  What's the problem...reality too tough to parse?

In what way do the values placed upon us by other people not qualify as a value apart from ones own opinion of self? Yes, Mystic, you're being -entirely- irrational...even by your own demands and metrics...which are themselves irrational.

At least you're thorough, I guess.