Gay, Catholic and Doing Fine

[LadyForCamus]

Because you sit here and tell us that we are substandard humans because we don't believe in your stupid old book.  It gets really annoying after, like, the millionth time. You have no justifiable, rational reason to believe the damn thing is worth more than toilet paper, let alone structure your entire life around it.  And then find the balls to look down other people -from- of it.  

Have I ever said you are a substandard human? No.

And yes, belief in God is completely rational. COMPLETELY. RATIONAL.

There is also sufficient reason to believe that the account of Jesus in the NT is more probable than not.

So, I'm not sure why you're ASSUMING that I "look down [on] other people" who don't believe.

Is it because you look down on those who do?

Your claim is that those who do not believe in the Christian God are not capable of knowing 'right' from 'wrong.' You believe that you have a moral compass and that I don't, but you don't feel you are a better person than me for it? Never mind, don't answer, because you are going to say 'no, I don't,' and I'm not going to believe you.

[Esquilax]

Why are you so angry?

Athrock asked this question of LadyforCamus, but I'd like to answer it too, because I think it'd be informative and might explain why I was so short with CL too, which I kinda hate to do for otherwise extremely nice people.

I'm a young person. I turn 25 this weekend, so I wasn't around for a lot of the really awful stuff, but I'm still a part of the LGBTQ community, and I've seen, and listened, and heard what others within it have to say. The gay/straight alliance at my university lost a member to suicide while I was there. Good friends shared their stories of dealing with bigotry, and the bruises (sometimes literal, other times not) that it left behind. Old girlfriends and boyfriends tell me of the adverse reactions of family, the hostility and dismissiveness that came simply from them living their own authentic lives. I've seen the suffering that comes of religious bigotry, not just in the suicides and deaths and beatings, but in the dislocation of families, the divisions between friends, the small, alienating moments that all add up into one big communal voice saying "you do not belong."

So when I see an otherwise lovely person like CL call her beliefs "just her opinion," or a gay christian shrugging their shoulders and saying that the church is just fine because their congregation is accepting of them, I just want to shake them. Not just because of the very real misery they're discounting out of hand with their nonchalance, but because they're apparently unaware of the valuable role they play in perpetuating the same bigotry they claim doesn't exist in their religion.

CL, you are the shield that the real bigots hide behind to escape negative responses to their actions. You are the "good christian majority" of kind, normal, compassionate human beings that mask the vitriol and hate of those causing real suffering, the crowd of good people that they retreat to after punching us in the gut, feigning the same smile that you genuinely wear. You are the empty cup in the shell game we in the LGBTQ community have to play with the religious, the one they look under when they force us to undergo their little "find the bigotry" test, whereupon they'll say "whoops, there's no bigotry under this cup! Sorry friend, maybe it just plum doesn't exist?"

You are what real bigots point to, from atop mountains of bodies and oceans of tears, from the wreckage of broken families and depressed young people and every gay couple struggling for acceptance, you are always there for them to point to and ask us: "what do you mean, the church's stance on homosexuality is harmful? Look at her! She wouldn't hurt a fly, and she's catholic!"

That's why I'm angry. You and all the good people like you are unwitting pawns in a manipulative game played by those in power within your religion, and every time you choose to say the words that make their case, or remain blind to the destruction both large and small being done in your name, the implication is that your church's beliefs are more important than the lives and well being of those being ground down on its behalf.

You're being used, and you choose not to see it.

[athrock]

Have I ever said you are a substandard human? No.

And yes, belief in God is completely rational. COMPLETELY. RATIONAL.

There is also sufficient reason to believe that the account of Jesus in the NT is more probable than not.

So, I'm not sure why you're ASSUMING that I "look down [on] other people" who don't believe.

Is it because you look down on those who do?

Your claim is that those who do not believe in the Christian God are not capable of knowing 'right' from 'wrong.'  You believe that you have a moral compass and that I don't, but you don't feel you are a better person than me for it?  Never mind, don't answer, because you are going to say 'no, I don't,' and I'm not going to believe you.

Yes, because apart from an objective standard, there is no basis for saying that anything is "right" or "wrong". It's just your opinion v. my opinion.

And I have NOT said you don't have a moral compass because:

A. It is possible for non-believers to ACT in a moral fashion, and 
B. This ability is the direct result of God's placement of a moral compass (Natural Law) within us.

Paul wrote:

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

We observe the universe and see God's handiwork in the ordering of the stars and the seasons and the plants and animals.

We observe human behavior and see right and wrong from universally accepted objective moral values.

[athrock]

Why are you so angry?

Athrock asked this question of LadyforCamus, but I'd like to answer it too, because I think it'd be informative and might explain why I was so short with CL too, which I kinda hate to do for otherwise extremely nice people.

I'm a young person. I turn 25 this weekend, so I wasn't around for a lot of the really awful stuff, but I'm still a part of the LGBTQ community, and I've seen, and listened, and heard what others within it have to say. The gay/straight alliance at my university lost a member to suicide while I was there. Good friends shared their stories of dealing with bigotry, and the bruises (sometimes literal, other times not) that it left behind. Old girlfriends and boyfriends tell me of the adverse reactions of family, the hostility and dismissiveness that came simply from them living their own authentic lives. I've seen the suffering that comes of religious bigotry, not just in the suicides and deaths and beatings, but in the dislocation of families, the divisions between friends, the small, alienating moments that all add up into one big communal voice saying "you do not belong."

So when I see an otherwise lovely person like CL call her beliefs "just her opinion," or a gay christian shrugging their shoulders and saying that the church is just fine because their congregation is accepting of them, I just want to shake them. Not just because of the very real misery they're discounting out of hand with their nonchalance, but because they're apparently unaware of the valuable role they play in perpetuating the same bigotry they claim doesn't exist in their religion.

CL, you are the shield that the real bigots hide behind to escape negative responses to their actions. You are the "good christian majority" of kind, normal, compassionate human beings that mask the vitriol and hate of those causing real suffering, the crowd of good people that they retreat to after punching us in the gut, feigning the same smile that you genuinely wear. You are the empty cup in the shell game we in the LGBTQ community have to play with the religious, the one they look under when they force us to undergo their little "find the bigotry" test, whereupon they'll say "whoops, there's no bigotry under this cup! Sorry friend, maybe it just plum doesn't exist?"

You are what real bigots point to, from atop mountains of bodies and oceans of tears, from the wreckage of broken families and depressed young people and every gay couple struggling for acceptance, you are always there for them to point to and ask us: "what do you mean, the church's stance on homosexuality is harmful? Look at her! She wouldn't hurt a fly, and she's catholic!"

That's why I'm angry. You and all the good people like you are unwitting pawns in a manipulative game played by those in power within your religion, and every time you choose to say the words that make their case, or remain blind to the destruction both large and small being done in your name, the implication is that your church's beliefs are more important than the lives and well being of those being ground down on its behalf.

You're being used, and you choose not to see it.

I don't think you know Jesus Christ or His Catholic Church at all. 

And you choose not to see.

[Brian37]

Your claim is that those who do not believe in the Christian God are not capable of knowing 'right' from 'wrong.'  You believe that you have a moral compass and that I don't, but you don't feel you are a better person than me for it?  Never mind, don't answer, because you are going to say 'no, I don't,' and I'm not going to believe you.

Yes, because apart from an objective standard, there is no basis for saying that anything is "right" or "wrong". It's just your opinion v. my opinion.

And I have NOT said you don't have a moral compass because:

A. It is possible for non-believers to ACT in a moral fashion, and 
B. This ability is the direct result of God's placement of a moral compass (Natural Law) within us.

Paul wrote:

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

We observe the universe and see God's handiwork in the ordering of the stars and the seasons and the plants and animals.

We observe human behavior and see right and wrong from universally accepted objective moral values.

No sorry, quoting a holy book is what every religion does. And no, morals are NOT universal in the context of human invented religion. 

Our species ability to be cruel or compassionate is in our evolution, not old comic books. Not the bible, not the Quran not the Vedas, none of them.

That was then this is now. It was understandable back the that people wrote those things and others bought those things. We have a much better scientific understanding of evolution and the universe now.

[athrock]

Ok. In that case we'll just have to agree to disagree on whether his "reasons" for being celibate are good.

No you made the claim, now it is time for you to prove, that your Catholic view of the bible is credible, and you need to do so with scientific evidence. If you cannot do that, then do the right thing, and admit the bible is not the correct way to view human behaviors.

I am quite sure you already accept that the Quran contains no scientific evidence that defends the need for a woman to wear a burka.

Don't hit and run. Prove that Catholic interpretation of gays is scientifically sound.

I think I will take this up.

First, why do you think that the Catholic interpretation of gays (whatever that is) must by "scientifically sound"? What IS the Catholic position on why people have homosexual orientation, Brian? Are you thoroughly familiar with the Church's position on this matter?

Second, is the "scientific" position the only consideration? Or are there theological considerations that the Church must consider also?

[athrock]

I can't prove that, and never claimed I could. However, I have had a personal experience that has been proof to me of God's existence, and of Catholicism specifically. Can I use this as proof for anyone else? No. Not unless they took my word for what I would say happened. I just know in my heart that it is true, and I'm ok with others not agreeing. I have 0 interest in trying to convert anyone here. Looks like you're looking for a fight, but you'll just have to go look somewhere else.

Right you cant prove it, and that should tell you something right there.

"Personal experience", yep heard that one too, not just from Catholics, but Baptists and Mormons and Jews and Hindus and Buddhists. Yes you can cling to something based on that. Now the issue on all topics, not just the topic of this thread is "so what". 

And like most humans, you have no idea what selection bias and sample rate error are. And you don't understand that science does explain even to a neurological degree, that our species perceptions of reality are notoriously flawed.

Brian-

What are you really asking for? Do you want Cathy (and me) to prove that the Catholic Church's position on homosexuality is scientifically sound? Or more broadly, do you want us to demonstrate that the reasons for our faith are reasonable?

And you're not the only one familiar with selection bias and sampling errors, but apart from throwing around these terms, you have not demonstrated why you think that we are guilty of these things.

[athrock]

Sorry that I'm not going to try to convince you to believe what I believe.

Ok, nobody is going to have you arrested,  no, but then don't bitch when we respond to your posts. 

And if you are not willing to prove what you claim, still, if you think this page is simply all for the purpose of going "kumbia" that would be a mistake.

Of course you aren't going to try to convince us, because that is the dodge theists make when they have no evidence for their claims.

We don't doubt you truly believe what you do, again, I was a former Catholic. I do however doubt you understand how easily humans fall for their own false interpretation of what they think they saw.

Ah. The "former Catholic". 

Brian, how old were you when you finally started thinking for yourself, saw the truth and left the Church?

And what were the reasons for your departure?

[athrock]

What a terrible fucking god to worship that wants to control who people have sex with.  I don't think most religious people understand that the god they worship says a lot about them.  I wouldn't be caught dead worshiping such a god.  Especially since I have a daughter who is a lesbian.  Fuck them.  My daughter's fucking perfect.

So, that explains it.

Thanks for sharing.

[athrock]

What a terrible fucking god to worship that wants to control who people have sex with.  I don't think most religious people understand that the god they worship says a lot about them.  I wouldn't be caught dead worshiping such a god.  Especially since I have a daughter who is a lesbian.  Fuck them.  My daughter's fucking perfect.

Agreed. And again, this bullshit about condemning gays, while pretending to love them, is not real love.

As I said before, risky sexual behavior is not a patent owned by gays. Heterosexual teens can end up with unwanted pregnancies, sexually transmitted diseases and can and do have oral and anal sex without condoms, which is risky. Even being married won't prevent that. We even know now that semen contains the HPV virus which can cause cancer. 

Risky behavior is about hormones and or a result of prior abuse, not someone's sexuality. And the only way to reduce those risks is understanding HOW your body works in a scientific sense, what the risks are, and how to reduce them. 

There certainly ARE lagit reasons to refrain from sex, and none of them are explained by an old comic book.

This is flawed reasoning.

If I tell someone who is at risk of killing himself by excessive use of alcohol, am I pretending to love him?

If I tell someone who is at risk of offending God by gay sex, am I pretending to love him?

Sometimes, people need real love - the kind that requires the truth to be spoken - and not the syrupy, sentimental feelings that masquerades as love.