Religious Liberty?

[bennyboy]

I would find ways to produce at less cost. If I didn't buy from the most economical sources I would have to pass that cost on to my customers. They are the disabled. I do everything I can to make my products affordable to the population I serve and who mostly live on a fixed incomes.

Translation: I would find another country who would be willing to pay workers less money than the mere pennies those currently making my products are paid now because goddammit I need to maintain my middle class lifestyle!

Translation: liberty is great unless I need you to give up yours to ensure mine.

[Brian37]

No one is saying what christers should or shouldn't do. They're saying that christers shouldn't use their businesses to trample others.

First of all, these two sentences aren't logically consistent.  The second directly contradicts the first.

Second, the word "trample" is too biased.  There are certainly disagreements about what constitutes liberty and what constitutes oppression, for example, but when you use demonizing language like that, you're more likely to bolster religious positions than to minimize them.

Is that really so hard to figure out?!? I could give two shits for what the CEO of the fucking Hobby Lobby believes, until he pushes those personal beliefs down the food chain to those he employs.

The problem isn't what the employees can or cannot do.  The management are not trying to prevent staff from contraceptive health care-- they are saying they don't want to be complicit in those parts of health care which go against their own beliefs.

No that is a problem, that would be no different than denying health care to mixed couples because of your belief races should not mix. This is simply religious based sexism.

[bennyboy]

No that is a problem, that would be no different than denying health care to mixed couples because of your belief races should not mix. This is simply religious based sexism.

If one's religion forbade the mixing of races in marriage, then yes, you probably wouldn't want to be forced, for example, to pay for a mixed marriage. And nobody is talking about denying anyone health care-- it's about what aspects of care an employer should be responsible for, and what aspects s/he should not.


You guys keep saying that employers are denying health care, as though the employer has a moral obligation to provide health care for workers. I don't think this is a moral truth: the truth is that each of us has to find a way to provide for ourselves and our offspring. America is now in the early stages of providing good health care to its citizens, and there are wrinkles to iron out. One of them is the balance between the religious values of employers and the pragmatic needs of employees.


As I mentioned before, I think the best solution is to make ALL reproductive health care government-run, so that employers don't have to make a moral decision or a moral stand if they don't like those aspects of the health care system.

[Neo-Scholastic]

Maybe you could direct your ire toward those people who have inspired me over the years. Have you ever heard of Timothy Ferris (The Four-Hour Work-Week), Seth Godin (“Make Something Happen”), or Tom Peters (“The Brand Called You.”)

Today’s global economy is no longer based on early 20th-century mass-production. That’s not a problem. It’s a good thing. Old power structures have been broken down and regular folks, just like you, now have the opportunity to take charge of their own fortunes in ways that were never before possible. Whereas, operating a business used to require huge capital investments in factories and distribution networks, an ambitious individual, just like you, can start a business with a little foresight and some pocket change.

Let me give you a better idea of the bigger picture. Yes, I purchase cheap OEM goods produced by low-skill workers in China, but the precision OEM goods come from Germany. I hire high-skilled American product designers who I can assure you are very well compensated. I have injection molds fabricated in Eastern Europe for use in Illinois. Assembly and packaging is performed by a not-for-profit that provides employment to the mentally challenged. I take great pride in the fact that I personally coordinated all these diverse resources to meet the needs of previously ignored niche population.

I didn’t learn how to do all this on my own. I didn’t demonize people who were wealthy. I reached out to them, called them personally, asked for advice. And you know something, very few were protective or cagey; but rather, they were by and large very generous. I could easily have sat back and complained about stagnant incomes, diminished savings vehicles, and shrinking entitlements. I could have protested and demanded that the government do something to insure my future and mandate that other people give me free condoms. Instead I have chosen to do something to better myself.

I brought an invention to life. I publish books. I make and sell oil paintings. I import and export. I sell things online. And I have a dayjob. It’s a career cocktail of multiple income streams. None of them makes a ton of money but collectively they keep me and my family afloat. So I am going to offer everyone here a choice. You can keep berating me as a selfish opportunistic asshole who is ruining the world economy or you can politely PM me for advice on how you too can take advantage of the 21st century to build businesses suited to your own unique skills and insights.

[Brian37]

"I" "I" "I" yea and you still had help. Grow the fuck up.

[I_am_not_mafia]

To what extant should religious liberty in this nation be respected?

Which nation?

[rexbeccarox]

Wooters, you keep coming back to this thread, so I know you've seen my replies... unless, of course, you have me on ignore, which I doubt. I think your vast intellectual dishonesty makes it so you don't want to revisit the vile topic YOU started, and you're scared to go back to it. You got your ass handed to you, but you don't want to admit it. Who's the douchebag? Are you going to respond to the PP thread or not? Again: I'm not letting this go, so maybe you should just eat your crow like a good little boy.

I'm not going to let this go easily.

Hey Wooters, are you ever going to go back to this thread? Or are you too embarrassed? Want to prove everyone wrong who says you are too arrogant to admit when you're wrong?

Maybe you could direct your ire toward those people who have inspired me over the years. Have you ever heard of Timothy Ferris (The Four-Hour Work-Week), Seth Godin (“Make Something Happen”), or Tom Peters (“The Brand Called You.”)

Today’s global economy is no longer based on early 20th-century mass-production. That’s not a problem. It’s a good thing. Old power structures have been broken down and regular folks, just like you, now have the opportunity to take charge of their own fortunes in ways that were never before possible. Whereas, operating a business used to require huge capital investments in factories and distribution networks, an ambitious individual, just like you, can start a business with a little foresight and some pocket change.

Let me give you a better idea of the bigger picture. Yes, I purchase cheap OEM goods produced by low-skill workers in China, but the precision OEM goods come from Germany. I hire high-skilled American product designers who I can assure you are very well compensated. I have injection molds fabricated in Eastern Europe for use in Illinois. Assembly and packaging is performed by a not-for-profit that provides employment to the mentally challenged. I take great pride in the fact that I personally coordinated all these diverse resources to meet the needs of previously ignored niche population.

I didn’t learn how to do all this on my own. I didn’t demonize people who were wealthy. I reached out to them, called them personally, asked for advice. And you know something, very few were protective or cagey; but rather, they were by and large very generous. I could easily have sat back and complained about stagnant incomes, diminished savings vehicles, and shrinking entitlements. I could have protested and demanded that the government do something to insure my future and mandate that other people give me free condoms. Instead I have chosen to do something to better myself.

I brought an invention to life. I publish books. I make and sell oil paintings. I import and export. I sell things online. And I have a dayjob. It’s a career cocktail of multiple income streams. None of them makes a ton of money but collectively they keep me and my family afloat. So I am going to offer everyone here a choice. You can keep berating me as a selfish opportunistic asshole who is ruining the world economy or you can politely PM me for advice on how you too can take advantage of the 21st century to build businesses suited to your own unique skills and insights.

[Joods]

Maybe you could direct your ire toward those people who have inspired me over the years. Have you ever heard of Timothy Ferris (The Four-Hour Work-Week), Seth Godin (“Make Something Happen”), or Tom Peters (“The Brand Called You.”)

Nope. Your words were and I quote:

As a business owner, I refuse to hire anyone. Conforming to all the federal, state and local regulations is too expensive, too risky and ultimately unnecessary. I have consultants, independent contractors, and out-source all my production - mostly overseas. I started my own business for the sole purpose of making money so I could stay in the middle class, not to provide social services.

Based on this statement alone, you are no better than the large companies to take work away from Americans and give it to people overseas for cheap labor. Instead of helping your fellow American out, you choose to be chincy. You've been called out on it and now you want to blameshift YOUR decisions based on who inspired you? Give me a break dude. No one held a gun to your head and made you do anything you didn't want to do. Including acting like an ass. Timothy Ferris, Seth Godin and Tom Peters are NOT responsible for the things YOU chose to embark on. Just because they inspired you does not free YOU from being held accountable for your own actions.

Admit it. You got caught looking like the embarrassment to this country that you are. Quit trying to back peddle and blame people you looked up to.

[Joods]

Becca, he doesn't have the balls to do that. That's probably why he's not responding to you. Yes, he's a coward. To the core.

[rexbeccarox]

Becca, he doesn't have the balls to do that. That's probably why he's not responding to you. Yes, he's a coward. To the core.

I realize this, but I'm tenacious