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'Prove claims' question.
#21
RE: 'Prove claims' question.
(December 16, 2008 at 5:47 pm)CoxRox Wrote:
(December 16, 2008 at 5:24 pm)LukeMC Wrote: To address the original post, the phrase "I think" is sometimes used out of a lack of confidence. I was going to begin by saying "I think the reason people..." and carry on from there. This is because I was basically gonna make up a suggestion with no real evidence to back it up. "I think" gives me the cover of opinion.

If somebody says "I think there is a God" then you can pose the question "what makes you think this?"
If they present no evidence, dismiss their claim, as it says in Purple Rabbit's sig.
If they do have evidence, dispute it like any other debate. It isn't exactly the same as burden of proof, it's more a case of us asking the thinker to assess their thoughts and back them up. If they cannot do this, their opinion has no ground to stand on. It's just baseless speculation.

Good points Luke. I would just say that it can be frustrating when you present your 'evidence' or reasons for a certain belief but this is rejected. I'll give an example. I think there is a God because of the inference for design. You guys will not accept that there is any inference. You beleive nature appears to show design, it's how our brains are wired. I would say this could be right, but that 'design' is still a possibility. This may be stretching it a bit, but I liken my detection of 'design' as similar to string theorists detecting strings. They detect 'strings' via tangible proofs, things that infer strings, but still they aren't able to prove the strings really exist. Smile

Perhaps the relevent discussion is therefore on the inference for design firstly? If your only evidence for this assumption (nature implies design) is that it seems that way, then we can't take it as a serious point, as it isn't falsifiable. The sun seems to orbit the earth. We cannot disprove that it seems that way, only that it isn't actually that way in reality. With life and the universe, it would be quite hard to figure it all out and then decide whether or not a designer was responsible. It may seem that way to some, but what would it look like if there wasn't a designer?
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#22
RE: 'Prove claims' question.
LukeMc, my evidence is you, me, atoms, energy, physical things. We will go round in a circle now, because you will reject these physical things as proof and say I view their origins incorrectly, my logic is flawed. Maybe it is, but after learning about what scientists reckon is possible via string theory, then I think a designer could be lurking out there in all these dimensions??
"The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility"

Albert Einstein
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#23
RE: 'Prove claims' question.
You are confusing biology with theoretical physics, that is hardly a fair comparison. That is like comparing tectonic plate movement with looking for Higgs boson.
Best regards,
Leo van Miert
Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall --Torque is how far you take the wall with you
Pastafarian
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#24
RE: 'Prove claims' question.
(December 16, 2008 at 6:22 pm)leo-rcc Wrote: You are confusing biology with theoretical physics, that is hardly a fair comparison. That is like comparing tectonic plate movement with looking for Higgs boson.

I think that is unfair. They both deal with life and reality.
"The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility"

Albert Einstein
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#25
RE: 'Prove claims' question.
How so?
Best regards,
Leo van Miert
Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall --Torque is how far you take the wall with you
Pastafarian
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#26
RE: 'Prove claims' question.
I referred to physical things, biological things. String theory if true, gave rise to these biological processes.
"The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility"

Albert Einstein
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#27
RE: 'Prove claims' question.
Am I wrong or are you trying to somehow get back to the ultimate building block of reality from which everything else arises?
[Image: cinjin_banner_border.jpg]
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#28
RE: 'Prove claims' question.
(December 16, 2008 at 6:39 pm)Darwinian Wrote: Am I wrong or are you trying to somehow get back to the ultimate building block of reality from which everything else arises?

Yes.
"The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility"

Albert Einstein
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#29
RE: 'Prove claims' question.
So? Plate tectonics is observable fact, Higgs Boson is being researched but is not proven either. This compares great with Biology which is observable and falsifyable, and string theory is not.
Best regards,
Leo van Miert
Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall --Torque is how far you take the wall with you
Pastafarian
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#30
RE: 'Prove claims' question.
(December 15, 2008 at 4:16 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: To my mind, "I think" denotes opinion and opinion is not a claim as such ... it does, however, depend very much on how it is expressed.

Kyu
I agree with Kyu I think. I think its a matter on how its expressed despite if it starts with "I think".
For example perhaps "I think" should be treated as a claim if its basically explicit assertion disguised as opinion simply with "I think" inserted in front or something.
I can imagine that some people would be convinced by "I think" a lot more because the "I think" denotes opinion despite the fact it shouldn't be given more respect of it was expressed without the "I think" if its still a totally absurd thing.
For example is a dogmatic preacher went around preaching but simply inserted "I think" in front of things he could still convince a lot of people. Perhaps even more to those who don't like being explicitly told things and have claims asserted on them.
I think at times it could be a sneaky disguise in certain situations as I think bozo was saying at the start of this thread.
Lets see with an example, lets see what its like. I found this quote: "Man is the same today that he has always been. He is a rebel against God. He may, in some generations, hide his rebellion a little more carefully than at other times, but there is no change in his heart. The men who builded the city against God back in the days of Babylon had the same hatred as that which possessed the men who nailed the Lord Jesus Christ to the cross." ~ Donald Grey Barnhouse.
Now what would it sound like expressed as an opinion? Words in bold are where I have edited: "I think man is the same today that he has always been. I think He is a rebel against God. I think He may, in some generations, hide his rebellion a little more carefully than at other times, but there is no change in his heart. I think The men who builded the city against God back in the days of Babylon had the same hatred as that which possessed the men who I think nailed the Lord Jesus Christ to the cross who I think existed/exists." ~ edited version.
And you can substitute "I think" for "I believe" if you wish too if it makes a difference.
Seems pretty weak to me. But I can imagine perhaps some people would fall for it if some people fall for preachers just asserting claims in their face without anything to back them up!
P.S: This wouldn't count as plagiarism would it? Because I made sure I gave the name of who I was quoting. And then I made it very clear that I was doing an edited version and the parts in bold were the edited parts. If its plagiarism please tell me and I'll delete the quotes immediately.
EDIT: I think now that perhaps "I believe" sounds stronger (sounds more like a claim) but is still considered an opinion. It seems like a middle ground between a claim and "I think". If the preacher I quoted said "I believe" instead of "I think" perhaps it would sound more forceful but still be considered opinion, could have more of an effect. Convince more people, yet still sound disguised as an opinion perhaps. "I believe" sounds strong and also positive to a lot of people I'm sure. "I think" sounds weak and more neutral.
So I think its how "I think" and "I believe", etc are expressed too. Like Kyu said, how its expressed matters even if it still has "I think" in front.
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