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My views on objective morality
March 8, 2016 at 9:59 pm
(March 8, 2016 at 9:57 pm)God of Mr. Hanky Wrote: (March 8, 2016 at 9:51 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I'm gonna say this one more time, and this goes to everyone.
I believe God allows nature to take its course. I believe He allows people to have free will. He let's things happen as they would, naturally.
He does not resort to divine intervention to micromanage the world.
From that, there are good and bad consequences. One of the bad consequences is rape. However, I trust God to know that the good consequences of His decision to give us free will and to not be a micromanager, outweigh the bad consequences of it. Im not saying the bad consequences aren't bad. I'm not saying rape, specifically, has good consequences. I'm saying I trust that the good consequences in general, of giving us free will, in general... of not resorting to divine intervention, of letting nature take its course, etc, etc, outweigh the bad.
What are the "good consequences?" That I do not know. I'm just a little human, living in a tiny section of the universe, for a tiny amount of time. I'm not God. I can't see everything.
Also, I believe that if God did become human like us He would stop a rape if it came to it. After all, He did stop the stoning of an adulteress. But He is not human right now. And stopping bad things from happening would require divine intervention, taking away free will, micromanaging. Which are all things that He, for whatever reason that we can't see right now, has deemed would do more harm than good in the grand scheme of things. (Also, I never said rape goes unpunished so I'm not sure where that straw came from.)
So, that's it. That's all there is to it. You may not like it, but at this point I honestly don't give a fuck. It's your decision whether you choose to accept my differences and still be cool with me, as I accept yours, or not. But there is nothing else I can say on the subject that hasn't already been said. So take it or leave it.
In that case I can only conclude that you are not dealing with these questions honestly, or at very least not thoughtfully. The special pleading you make for such a horrible monster of a god really does nothing good for your humanity.
JINX, you owe me a Coke! *runs off*
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
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RE: My views on objective morality
March 8, 2016 at 10:00 pm
(March 8, 2016 at 9:45 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: (March 8, 2016 at 9:16 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: No. He's saying I'm excusing rape. Which I am not. So no, not "exactly this" at all.
"Or that complicity in it is excusable." There is a difference here.
Alright, Lady for Camus, you got me. I believe that complicity in rape, torture, murder, and any other vile thing that any person has ever committed is excusable. You happy now? You're not accepting what I'm telling you, so if it makes you feel better for me to agree with you about what my position is, then there you go. Not sure how you can still think I'm a "good person" if you believe I think complicity of vile acts are excusable, but like I said to Mr Hanky. I don't give a fuck. I know who my friends are now.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: My views on objective morality
March 8, 2016 at 10:02 pm
(March 8, 2016 at 9:58 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: (March 8, 2016 at 9:51 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I'm gonna say this one more time, and this goes to everyone.
I believe God allows nature to take its course. I believe He allows people to have free will. He let's things happen as they would, naturally.
He does not resort to divine intervention to micromanage the world.
From that, there are good and bad consequences. One of the bad consequences is rape. However, I trust God to know that the good consequences of His decision to give us free will and to not be a micromanager, outweigh the bad consequences of it. Im not saying the bad consequences aren't bad. I'm not saying rape, specifically, has good consequences. I'm saying I trust that the good consequences in general, of giving us free will, in general... of not resorting to divine intervention, of letting nature take its course, etc, etc, outweigh the bad.
What are the "good consequences?" That I do not know. I'm just a little human, living in a tiny section of the universe, for a tiny amount of time. I'm not God. I can't see everything.
Also, I believe that if God did become human like us He would stop a rape if it came to it. After all, He did stop the stoning of an adulteress. But He is not human right now. And stopping bad things from happening would require divine intervention, taking away free will, micromanaging. Which are all things that He, for whatever reason that we can't see right now, has deemed would do more harm than good in the grand scheme of things. (Also, I never said rape goes unpunished so I'm not sure where that straw came from.)
So, that's it. That's all there is to it. You may not like it, but at this point I honestly don't give a fuck. It's your decision whether you choose to accept my differences and still be cool with me, as I accept yours, or not. But there is nothing else I can say on the subject that hasn't already been said. So take it or leave it.
Well, it's still a form of special pleading and it's still a logical fallacy. If you are okay with it, then that is your decision. Hopefully no one here will stop being cool with you over a philosophical disagreement, because that would just be silly.
They are absolutely free to do so, since quite frankly, I'm not cool with anyone who thinks I'm excusing rape in any way shape or form. The feeling would be mutual.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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My views on objective morality
March 8, 2016 at 10:08 pm
(March 8, 2016 at 10:00 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (March 8, 2016 at 9:45 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: "Or that complicity in it is excusable." There is a difference here.
Alright, Lady for Camus, you got me. I believe that complicity in rape, torture, murder, and any other vile thing that any person has ever committed is excusable.
How can you say you don't believe that?! You have almost literally said that you trust God has reasons for his complicity; for letting nature take its course. I'm not trying to make you agree with me CL. I'm trying to understand why you make this exception. And it certainly doesn't follow that I must think you are a bad person for making exceptions for god.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
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RE: My views on objective morality
March 8, 2016 at 10:09 pm
(This post was last modified: March 8, 2016 at 10:11 pm by bennyboy.)
(March 8, 2016 at 9:16 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: No. He's saying I'm excusing rape. Which I am not. So no, not "exactly this" at all.
Your cousin, who you think is good, sees a child rape happening. Your cousin, being a big libertarian, allows the rape continue. People say, "Your cousin allows child rape, so he's bad." You say, "No, my cousin just believes in free will. Don't blame him."
Your husband, who is a police officer, and who you think is good, sees a child rape about to happen. Your husband says, "If this guy really rapes that kid, he is soooo going to jail, or maybe even getting the death penalty." So he stands by and allows the rape, smug in the knowledge that the pedophile is going to get what's coming to him. People say, "Your husband allows child rape, so he's bad." You say, "No, my husband had to let the crime happen in order to bring justice to the pedophile. Don't blame him."
Your God, who you think is good, sees all, definitely knows that a child rape is happening. People say, "Your God allows child rape, so he's bad." You say, "No, my God believes in free will, and anyway his ways are mysterious. Don't blame Him."
The common element here is that you are condemning none of these horrible people, and are in fact putting forward a moral defense for their actions. Maybe God DOES have a plan for raped babies, and maybe he doesn't. But he lets child rapes happen, and any moral system dependent on the idea that that COULD be okay is fucking retarded. And anyone who attempts to promote, defend, or support that system of thought is, at least implicitly, excusing child rape.
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RE: My views on objective morality
March 8, 2016 at 10:10 pm
(March 8, 2016 at 10:08 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: (March 8, 2016 at 10:00 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Alright, Lady for Camus, you got me. I believe that complicity in rape, torture, murder, and any other vile thing that any person has ever committed is excusable.
How can you say you don't believe that?! You have almost literally said that you trust God has reasons for his complicity; for letting nature take its course. I'm not trying to make you agree with me CL. I'm trying to understand why you make this exception. And it certainly doesn't follow that I must think you are a bad person for making exceptions for god.
You're right, Lady.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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My views on objective morality
March 8, 2016 at 10:11 pm
What I am saying is that it's not logical.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
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My views on objective morality
March 8, 2016 at 10:12 pm
(March 8, 2016 at 10:10 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (March 8, 2016 at 10:08 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: How can you say you don't believe that?! You have almost literally said that you trust God has reasons for his complicity; for letting nature take its course. I'm not trying to make you agree with me CL. I'm trying to understand why you make this exception. And it certainly doesn't follow that I must think you are a bad person for making exceptions for god.
You're right, Lady.
Wow, well thanks for clarifying. Glad I wasted my time.
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RE: My views on objective morality
March 8, 2016 at 10:12 pm
(This post was last modified: March 8, 2016 at 10:16 pm by God of Mr. Hanky.)
(March 8, 2016 at 10:02 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (March 8, 2016 at 9:58 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Well, it's still a form of special pleading and it's still a logical fallacy. If you are okay with it, then that is your decision. Hopefully no one here will stop being cool with you over a philosophical disagreement, because that would just be silly.
They are absolutely free to do so, since quite frankly, I'm not cool with anyone who thinks I'm excusing rape in any way shape or form. The feeling would be mutual.
Then why do you excuse the god who is pleased to stand by and watch when it happens? If he has the power to do anything, then he does what he pleases, therefore it pleases him to watch and allow it. I'm done going around in circles with you CL, you've made it clear how determined you are to ignore the fact that you worship and advocate for a god who likes to watch the evil which he can prevent, and this is exactly why we say you endorse evil (it pleases your god). But I still think you are much too good a person to excuse such a god, if you can even still believe in him at all.
Mr. Hanky loves you!
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RE: My views on objective morality
March 8, 2016 at 10:13 pm
(March 8, 2016 at 10:11 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: What I am saying is that it's not logical.
Well obviously it is to me.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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