Shia Islamic Argument for the existence of God

[GrandizerII]

Ok, I actually read the whole post. Still confusing, so let's go bit by bit here:

I agree with the first few paragraphs. So skipping over to the part where I started to get really confused. Can you explain to me more what this is actually saying?

Given that the aggregate of finite beings is not another entity, which has something additional to its parts, it does not have any reality at all.

[Cato]

This is nothing more than a repackaged ontological argument and fails for reasons established centuries ago.

[ErGingerbreadMandude]

Could you sum it up in a pithy sentence? Walls of text make my eyes hurt.

^^ this.
Could someone summarize this argument into something like :

*point a
*since point a,point b
*therefore point b

Huge walls of text make me headachy

[pocaracas]

So...not having read the whole thing, but I sum up what I did read as:
Abstract concepts exist, abstract concepts are immaterial and eternal.
Man is finite and limited so he couldn't have invented these abstract concepts...they pre-existed him.
Hence only an eternal immaterial being could have come up with such concepts.


Fails at the gate, given that concepts are all man-made.

[robvalue]

This is why you need evidence.

There's no way to distinguish between this "god" being in your imagination, and being something actually real. You can't talk things into existence.

And also, I don't care either. If he exists, good for him.

[Redbeard The Pink]

You can't rationalize belief in a god with an argument. To rationalize belief that a god exists, you must be able to point to good evidence for that God's existence.

Edit: Aw...Rob beat me to it.

[TheMuslim]

Ok, I actually read the whole post. Still confusing, so let's go bit by bit here:

I agree with the first few paragraphs. So skipping over to the part where I started to get really confused. Can you explain to me more what this is actually saying?

Given that the aggregate of finite beings is not another entity, which has something additional to its parts, it does not have any reality at all.

I think it's saying that aggregates or groups are not actual entities in and of themselves. For example, "a dozen cars" is not an actual entity apart from its individual constituents. Aggregates or groups are just a concepts or names that refer to a number of actual individual units.

There's no way to distinguish between this "god" being in your imagination, and being something actually real. You can't talk things into existence.

Did you not read the part in my original post about the argument sidestepping the criticism of failure between notion and extension? This argument is based on actual external factuality and not simply notions/concepts/ideas.

[Redbeard The Pink]

Ok, but none of that or anything else you've said so far explains why you should be able to "argue" your god into existence. Argument is not how things are proven to exist. Evidence is how things are proven to exist. Arguments are not evidence. How do you demonstrate that Allah exists?

[GrandizerII]

Ok, I actually read the whole post. Still confusing, so let's go bit by bit here:

I agree with the first few paragraphs. So skipping over to the part where I started to get really confused. Can you explain to me more what this is actually saying?

I think it's saying that aggregates or groups are not actual entities in and of themselves. For example, "a dozen cars" is not an actual entity apart from its individual constituents. Aggregates or groups are just a concepts or names that refer to a number of actual individual units.

Ok, but can finite entities not be part of an infinite reality?

[robvalue]

Sorry, no. Arguments alone are not evidence as Redbeard says.

You have reduced reality to a model, based in your assumptions about it. You've then come to a conclusion about your model. It is then up to you to demonstrate that this conclusion also applies back to reality. The way you do this is with evidence.

Also, why should I care? You haven't addressed that. Being an atheist is a reaction to reality. If in fact there is a god, nothing would change for me.