Atheists

[Paul the Human]

You're right that I am not okay with other people's beliefs... in a way. More accurately, I fail to understand how and/or why people believe claims that they cannot back up. I find it interesting. If I ridicule those beliefs, it is not meant to be an argument... it is meant to be ridicule. Insecurity and/or affirmation are not my motivation. Laughter is. But you can think (and therefore believe) anything you want.

Do I feel superior to you (or other theists)? Nope. I feel more realistic about the supernatural, but that doesn't make me superior in any way. I know many theists that are superior to me in every way I can think of and, because of that, I have great respect for them. I still think their beliefs are ridiculous and can get a good laugh from that, though. Funny is funny.

There is something strangely dishonest about you, Godhead. Everything you say seems very calculated and covert. Why don't you start coming right out and asking the questions you really want to ask, instead of dropping bread crumbs for us to follow? You seem very fake to me.

[Godhead]

Darkness of angels -

Yes atheists can be very defensive. When someone is defensive and resorts to ridiculing others, does that sound like the person is secure, or insecure? On the one hand, we have extremist religious people (note : not the norm), who, together with atheists, play out a scenario filled with negativity. And I'm in the middle, looking around, wondering if anyone on either side realises the part they play in all of it. It takes two sides to have a conflict, either side can walk away, both sides need to be involved for the scenario to be able to take place. On one side you have a judgmental attitude, and on the other side you have defensiveness and a need to lash out. Both sides reciprocate each other in their own way, blinding them to the fact that their differences needn't be a problem. Maybe it's just that I have the relative luxury of not being caught up in it in any way. Religious fundamentalists only have the power to belittle atheists because atheists allow it. The solution is very simple, just walk away, let them be fundamentalists all on their own, with no one to play with, and just do your own thing. You needn't be part of the equation. I can't remember who said it but there'sa famous quote, which I'll paraphrase : "What would happen if there was a war, and no one turned up?" What many atheists seem to be doing is not only turning up, but putting glasses over their eyes which causes them to see everything and everyone (even those not involved) in terms of the very conflict which they have a choice to walk away from, and thus dismantle. Another quote, which I'll paraphrase (I think it was Einstein who said it) : "You can't solve a problem with the same mentality as those who started it". Again, maybe it's just me and the fact that I'm not involved in it, but I dare say it is clear to me that atheists have given away their power, and become like their aggressors, which is a shame as I myself and many other theists have no problem with your view that god doesn't exist. And those atheists who are stuck in the conflict are missing out on the one thing which I think matters the most, and which is the true test for all of us : Get on with each other. If the next man doesn't share your view, live with the difference. If he chooses to attack you, walk away (attitude wise).

[Shell B]

Godshead, why have you blatantly ignored this?

*sigh* Tell me exactly what I said that implied I wanted all theists to be atheists. It's simple. Really.

Nobody likes being disagreed with. However, I will admit it when I am wrong or have misunderstood something. We have been in something like three threads together and you have already jumped to a number of conclusions about me. It's hard to take you seriously when you obviously form your opinions based off some hidden agenda.

On a side note, this isn't the first time you have blatantly ignored responses to your posts or omitted certain parts that you didn't care to respond to.

[Paul the Human]

Godhead... that is how most people live their lives in the real world. You don't think I walk around ridiculing religion in my every day life do you? What you see here is a bunch of atheists, in an atheist forum community, letting off a little steam, partaking in some discussions about religion, being engaged in philosophical debates, and so on. This is not the real world. I'm not sure what you expected to find here. This is one of the few atheist forums that welcomes theists so openly. Sure, we poke fun at each other, but the theists that stick around and become our friends are the ones that can take some ribbing and dish it out in turn. It's all in good fun (though it does get a bit heated at times, no biggie) and leads all of us to a better understanding of each other and, yes, gives each side some affirmation. It is, overall, very constructive.

The problem you have run into is that, unlike some of the other theists, you have not provided any reasons for your beliefs that we have not considered to be... well... silly. You have not shown that your beliefs are, in any way, rational, logical, or defensible. Our natural reaction to that is to dismiss them as... worthy of ridicule. How can you expect anyone to discuss your beliefs seriously, if you can't explain them as being anything more than something you dreamed up?

I don't know you at all. As far as I know, you are a great guy. You and I might even get along famously in real life. When I talk this way about your beliefs, that is all I'm talking about. I do think that your approach on the forums seems a little suspicious and carries the scent of ulterior motives, but that could be a misinterpretation of your motivations. You have certainly misinterpreted the motivations of others, so... we know that it's possible.

[TheDarkestOfAngels]

Yes atheists can be very defensive. When someone is defensive and resorts to ridiculing others, does that sound like the person is secure, or insecure? On the one hand, we have extremist religious people (note : not the norm), who, together with atheists, play out a scenario filled with negativity.

You know, I've managed to watch a Nova program regarding the trial that ultimately determined that Intelligent Design wasn't science. There was a family featured in that feature who were believers themselves but suppporting that intelligent design not be taught in schools and they were not treated well by the citizens of the town of Dover... Colorado or Kansas or somthing.
They recieved everything from harassment letters to outright death threats.

There are still places in America where either I or someone I know would recieve treatment like this for being an atheist or dating black women (I'm white and male, btw.) I'm lucky I live in a community that is very tolerant of my ideas and choices that I've made in my life but not everyone is as lucky as I am.

Ridiculing others is a trait common among everyone, unfortunately, anywhere. Especially on the internet.
For example, I play Dungeons and Dragons (something still controversial and reviled among certain religious groups) and when wizards of the coast switched from the 3rd to the 4th edition of the game, the people who weren't thrilled with the new/updated game did not have very pleasant conversations with the people who were more thrilled with the game.
Keep in mind that this is the same game where you can spend eight hours in a single session pretending to be an elf talking to a person who is pretending to be a dwarf while imagining themselves in a pretend world and there are people online going up in arms because Wizards of the Coast wanted to bastardize/update/make money/change the game to be different. (I was in the 'they bastardized the game' camp, btw).

The point is, that is nothing new and since you're on the internet, it'll be something you'll have to get used to because it's not uncommon. I'm just surprised that an atheist website has fewer trollers/better anti-troll countermeasures than, say, a forum dedicated to political talk. I assume that kind of forum would be a cesspool of mindless trolling drones.

And I'm in the middle, looking around, wondering if anyone on either side realises the part they play in all of it. It takes two sides to have a conflict, either side can walk away, both sides need to be involved for the scenario to be able to take place. On one side you have a judgmental attitude, and on the other side you have defensiveness and a need to lash out. Both sides reciprocate each other in their own way, blinding them to the fact that their differences needn't be a problem. Maybe it's just that I have the relative luxury of not being caught up in it in any way. Religious fundamentalists only have the power to belittle atheists because atheists allow it. The solution is very simple, just walk away, let them be fundamentalists all on their own, with no one to play with, and just do your own thing. You needn't be part of the equation. I can't remember who said it but there'sa famous quote, which I'll paraphrase : "What would happen if there was a war, and no one turned up?" What many atheists seem to be doing is not only turning up, but putting glasses over their eyes which causes them to see everything and everyone (even those not involved) in terms of the very conflict which they have a choice to walk away from, and thus dismantle. Another quote, which I'll paraphrase (I think it was Einstein who said it) : "You can't solve a problem with the same mentality as those who started it". Again, maybe it's just me and the fact that I'm not involved in it, but I dare say it is clear to me that atheists have given away their power, and become like their aggressors, which is a shame as I myself and many other theists have no problem with your view that god doesn't exist. And those atheists who are stuck in the conflict are missing out on the one thing which I think matters the most, and which is the true test for all of us : Get on with each other. If the next man doesn't share your view, live with the difference. If he chooses to attack you, walk away (attitude wise).

What? Huh? ... As an atheist, I care very little over any conflict between individual faiths in the same manner as I have have over people arguing over which imaginary captain was better at his job over commanding a pretend space ship.
Obviously I can't speak for everyone. Some people will get more emotional than others in any heated debate regardless of their position. That's just human nature. Honestly, though, I think atheists are generally more likely to be level-headed than many who have a religion to defend in an arguement, particularly when they have much sillier elements of their faith to rationalize.
(I'm looking at you, story of genesis.)

[theVOID]

Void -

Obviously you haven't met most theists.

I already said what i meant, but to make it clear:

I was speaking from experience, as someone living in a modern western country and as an internet trawler, and 90% of the theists i meet are Christian. That still does not mean i make any assumptions about the beliefs of a generically labeled theist, there are too many different definitions of God to warrant making any initial assumptions at all.

Even if 99% of theists that you encounter are christians (which would in itself condition you to expect them all to be - unless you choose not to let it do so), it is very easy to ask.

Did i not already state that you need to define your own beliefs?

I don't assume anything about your beliefs, i only have what you define them to be. I already said i didn't do this, namely because of the problem with their being so many incompatible ideas about what Christianity condones or supports, or what God is real or not.

Again, it is up to you to make sure that you define what you believe, you cannot expect anyone else to do it for you and you cannot complain about their perception of your beliefs being incorrect when you haven't already described them.

Asking the question isn't such a challenge that it can't be done. Just type it.

For the 3rd time, i already covered this in my last post!

It may not be your job to define a theist's beliefs, but if you don't know ask.

YOU NEED TO DEFINE YOUR OWN BELIEF, I CANNOT TELL YOU WHAT YOU BELIEVE!

Otherwise you'll find yourself addressing a christian who isn't even there.

No, until i had an idea of what the person believed i wouldn't continue the conversation.

If you are frustrated by anything I say or my beliefs or the way I express them or the fact that I can't prove them or even my lack of critical thinking, whose problem is it? I can assure you that it's not mine.

Let this picture sum things up:

[lrh9]

Quite frankly your first post in this thread, 'Godhead', is symptomatic of the problem.

You tell someone that what they think and feel is wrong and statistically it induces an angry response and he or she recognizes that you are targeting them.

Instead of averting and assuaging my anger and suspicion you've attracted and roused it.

[chasm]

They seem to feel victimised for their nonbeliefs. Maybe some of you live in a country or part of a country where not believing in god is seen as a big deal. However it's obviously not like that everywhere.

That seems a little over-exaggerated, especially because we are normally victimized for our beliefs. I know of two or three court cases in with a parent has lot custody of a child because they were an atheist (two of these court cases were in the U.S., one in the U.K.). I know of people in the Middle East being stoned because they are atheists. I know of people who've lost their job because they were atheists. Hell, I lost my last job because I was an atheist!

I know it's not like that everywhere, but in most places, it is.

Anger. I always sense a lot of anger among atheists on these forums, like a grudge. It's like there's a deep need to "get back" at all theists, for some imagined wrongdoing. I hve to say that it's not a particularly healthy attitue to have.

Do you want to know why we feel that anger? Because theists have infiltrated into our life's and the government. This video sums it up quite nicely:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnbXlkNavwo

Assumptions. Many atheists assume that a theist would want to preach and convert atheists, or that they feel superior. Ironically atheists take on those traits themselves quite often. Also there's often an assumption that when someone introduces themselves as a theist, that they'e a christian. I've read many posts addressed to me and others which mention "your bible" and other christian references, even before the person knows whether or not the theist is a christian. It's quite bizarre, and melodramatic.

Most theists do preach to us.

Ironically, theists don't understand that they themselves are atheists. If some believes in the Christian God, but they don't believe in Zeus, then they hold an atheistic view towards Zeus, if you define atheist by "the lack of belief in one or more deities" (which I do).

I'd like an example of this "introduces themselves as a theist and is assumed to be christian." I haven't seen that yet, but maybe I'm missing it...

P.S. You should work on your typing skills. You miss a lot of letters.

[Godhead]

Chasm -

In your experience, most theists preach to you. Your experience. You quoted the bit where I said that "it's not like that everywhere", and in response, you didn't dispute that, instead you began talking about things in your experience and things that you'd heard about. I get it, I understand, but that is your experience.

And anyway, if all or even most theists per se are preachy, then why don't I ever encounter them? How come all the people who I know to be theists (of any kind whatsoever) don't preach? How come every time (admittedly few, but enough to spot a pattern) I've been in a religious environment, whether it be a church or the home of someone who's religious, how come not only did no one there preach to me, but they actively went out of their way to let me know that they're not even interested in doing so (even when I've subtly insisted on a debate)? You see, depending on where you are, you could live your whole life being preached at by christians (let's face it, that's what is meant by "theist" - christians are "your" theists, in your experience), or you could live your life barely giving any thought at all as to who believes what, because no one really considers it an issue. Over time you've become so conditioned to equate christian=preachy, theist=(probably) christian, theist=preachy, that that has become your experience and that is all you see. I've been accused many times, and quite correctly too, of not having evidence for what I believe. But this is an exception, and if you want evidence that your world is not everyone's world when it comes to this, do these two things :

- Spend time in another, very different part of the country, or even another country
- Forget about all of this, quit trying to see a problem

And over time you'll realise that your current experience is not shared by all. Go to San Francisco, London, New York, there are many places where no one even cares about your views on god. If a gay person lives in a small village, they're more likely to have a hard time there than they would if thy lived in a city. That's why you get gay communities in cities and not in villages. That's why the experience of gay people in cities is much more pleasant and free than in villages. If you live in the bible belt or somewhere similar, no wonder you see everything the way you do. No wonder you can say the phrase "Most theists do preach to us", yeah I bet they do. I bet most theists where you live are christians, and also preachy. But notall theists are christians and not all christians are preachy. If you don't believe me, see for yourself, go somewhere different. Don't get me wrong I totally understand that you must be frustrated, but frustration has an effect on judgement, and yours is way off. Expand your horizons and you'll see.

[Jaysyn]

Like this random video I found on youtube:

I love that. It took her less than a second to resort to Christmas present bribery. What a bitch.

I'm an atheist & really do enjoy the giving & receiving of gifts during the holidays & all the family stuff that goes along with it.