The impression I get is that in general (and with exceptions), atheists seem to feel a number of things.

They seem to feel victimised for their nonbeliefs. Maybe some of you live in a country or part of a country where not believing in god is seen as a big deal. However it's obviously not like that everywhere.

Anger. I always sense a lot of anger among atheists on these forums, like a grudge. It's like there's a deep need to "get back" at all theists, for some imagined wrongdoing. I hve to say that it's not a particularly healthy attitue to have.

Assumptions. Many atheists assume that a theist would want to preach and convert atheists, or that they feel superior. Ironically atheists take on those traits themselves quite often. Also there's often an assumption that when someone introduces themselves as a theist, that they'e a christian. I've read many posts addressed to me and others which mention "your bible" and other christian references, even before the person knows whether or not the theist is a christian. It's quite bizarre, and melodramatic.

What you should realise is that not all theists hate you, and there's no need to be angry all the time and lash out, and that not all theists are christians, or want to preach at you, and that having all that anger inside you will only harm you. The whole atheist V theist debate, when you look closely, is more often than not a disgruntled ex christain V christian debate, except that not everyone fits into either.

Perhaps, and you seem harmless enough.

But there are others.

Quote:“No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God.”

George Bush

And this was the SMARTER Bush. I can imagine what his tit-turd son thought.

Actually, I am moving to a very religous town, where about 95% of the population goes to church. If you're an atheist there, they might burn you at the stake.

About the theists being "preachy," I have an example. There was a kid at my (public) junior high who was this religous FANATIC. He went from place to place, participating in bible trivia tournaments. I'm 100% serious. We were playing dodgeball in gym, and he stood aside, RECITING BIBLE VERSES TO HIMSELF. Anyway, I told him about my atheism, and he was shocked. Every day, he would try to convert me, using all the, "how did the big bang form?" and every other cliched question there is. I responded with my own. He finally gave up, after I just told him to respect my beliefs, as I respected his. So, my point is, I'm not ASSUMING a theist would try to convert me. I know from experience.

(July 21, 2010 at 8:01 pm)Godhead Wrote: They seem to feel victimised for their nonbeliefs. Maybe some of you live in a country or part of a country where not believing in god is seen as a big deal. However it's obviously not like that everywhere.

Atheists are oppressed, repressed, and suppressed far more than the average theist notices, especially in the U.S. That is a fact.

(July 21, 2010 at 8:01 pm)Godhead Wrote: Anger. I always sense a lot of anger among atheists on these forums, like a grudge. It's like there's a deep need to "get back" at all theists, for some imagined wrongdoing. I hve to say that it's not a particularly healthy attitue to have.

Many of us are angry. Oppression, etc... will do that to you. Not to mention all of the stupid and/or just plain evil shit we see caused by religion/the religious. There is nothing unhealthy about voicing outrage.

(July 21, 2010 at 8:01 pm)Godhead Wrote: Assumptions. Many atheists assume that a theist would want to preach and convert atheists, or that they feel superior. Ironically atheists take on those traits themselves quite often. Also there's often an assumption that when someone introduces themselves as a theist, that they'e a christian. I've read many posts addressed to me and others which mention "your bible" and other christian references, even before the person knows whether or not the theist is a christian. It's quite bizarre, and melodramatic.

One of the things the Christian religion teaches is that it is one's duty to try to save all of us lost souls. It happens to us all the time. Excuse us if we are always ready for it. As for assuming everyone is a Christian... that is because most of us live in places where most everyone else is a Christian of one flavor or another. Nothing mysterious about that. Your beliefs are so out there, you can't expect anyone to guess them, can you?

(July 21, 2010 at 8:01 pm)Godhead Wrote: What you should realise is that not all theists hate you, and there's no need to be angry all the time and lash out, and that not all theists are christians, or want to preach at you, and that having all that anger inside you will only harm you. The whole atheist V theist debate, when you look closely, is more often than not a disgruntled ex christain V christian debate, except that not everyone fits into either.

You're making a lot of assumptions about atheists. We generally only 'lash out' once the person we are talking with begins to frustrate us or say really stupid shit.

What you are missing is that this is a forum community on the internet. I can't speak for everyone, but I keep it to myself in real life. Here... I can let fly. It can be cathartic.

(P.S. I only said 'we' and 'us', because I was replying as the generalized 'atheists' you were addressing this to. I don't actually claim to know the thoughts of others... )

Minimalist -

I appreciate that you consider me harmless, but there have been time when I've been called dangerous by atheists. How do you square that? Here's how I see it :

A Fundamentalist crazy religious people (minority, high profile as a result)
B Most religious people, occupying a range of positions on the ok-to-preachy scale, but generally nothing to worry about
C Far out people like me, with beliefs which are totally harmless

I think that I confuse atheists, and they're not used to being confused. I don't fit into their perdefined boxes. Also, bear in mind that if you and I were having a heated debate with an A, we would end up on the same side.



Nitsuj -

From experience, you have encountered a person who happened to be preachy. That person doesn't represent all christians let alone all theists.



Paul -

The U.S. is a strange country. You get all sorts. People are bolder and more upfront, and become more intense than most. Look at L.A., it's a freakshow. The U.S. isn't a great example of the average country. Now if you acknowledge that you're angry (by the way, I've come across atheists who deny being angry, and they do so very angrily), then you must also acknowledge, if you know what anger can do to someone, that perhaps your anger causes you to react in ways which may not necessarily be conducive to peace. Anger can be controlled, and accurately directed at what you're angry at. You have to be angry at the right things only, and not lash out. You can't spend your life being "trigger happy" with your anger. I'm not saying you do this (although maybe you do) I'm just saying generally. There's nothing unhealthy about voicing anger but theres a right and a wrong way to do it. If you want acknowledgement of your anger, you have it from me. You don't have to guess my beliefs, but it's quite easy to ask. The fact of jumping in with the assumption shows misdirected and uncontrolled anger. It's like you're always on edge and jumpy. I'm not going to demand that you praise the lord. Trust me, I'm a panentheist. My assumptions about atheists are based on what I've come across repeatedly. I wouldn't make an assumption based solely on one or two individuals. I do see patterns, and undercurrents, like the constant emotional need to ridicule. Whenever anyone tries to ridicule another person, it is a sign of insecurity and there are no exceptions.

Basically I understand that some of you are very angry, and maybe I would be too if I was in the bible belt or whatever, but you have to keep it under control (that doesn't mean don't express it). Just relax, take a deep breath, and don't let any strong emotions get the better of you (that doesn't mean don't express them). Despite being in 2010, sometimes these discussions resemble something out of the middle ages, whereas in my view, it is the height of civilization when two sides with strong differences in opinion can get on. That is the real challenge in all of this, not who's right or wrong. The reason I came here was to see if people with no belief in god could get on with someone with not only a belief in god, but a very weird set of beliefs. Half the time I'm not even bothered about showing you why what I believe is true. It's not a priority (and to be honest, I can't, let's face it).

(July 21, 2010 at 8:01 pm)Godhead Wrote: The impression I get is that in general (and with exceptions), atheists seem to feel a number of things.

They seem to feel victimised for their nonbeliefs. Maybe some of you live in a country or part of a country where not believing in god is seen as a big deal. However it's obviously not like that everywhere.

Not me, NZ is full of atheists.

We have very few assholes here trying to make laws out of 2000+ year old desert myths.

Quote:Anger. I always sense a lot of anger among atheists on these forums, like a grudge. It's like there's a deep need to "get back" at all theists, for some imagined wrongdoing. I hve to say that it's not a particularly healthy attitue to have.

I do not hate your theism, I hate the lack of critical thinking going on between your ears.

Oh, and i don't know a single Atheist who wants to "get back at theists".

Quote:Assumptions. Many atheists assume that a theist would want to preach and convert atheists, or that they feel superior.

That is because most theists do feel superior and try and preach.

Quote: Ironically atheists take on those traits themselves quite often.

That's because we are in fact superior But we don't preach.

Quote: Also there's often an assumption that when someone introduces themselves as a theist, that they'e a christian.

That's probably because 90% of the theists we encounter are Christian, so it's a safe assumption, but just assuming that someone is a Christian prior to being told otherwise still doesn't help because of thge massive variance amongst those who consider themselves Christian.... If you believe something else it's up to you to define it it's nobody's fault but your own if you don't make it clear that your not a Christians.

Quote: I've read many posts addressed to me and others which mention "your bible" and other christian references, even before the person knows whether or not the theist is a christian. It's quite bizarre, and melodramatic.

Again, it is up to you to point out that you are not Christian. You define what you believe, it's not our job.

Quote:What you should realise is that not all theists hate you,

No shit...

Quote: and there's no need to be angry all the time and lash out, and that not all theists are christians, or want to preach at you, and that having all that anger inside you will only harm you.

Anger? No. Frustration? Yes - but only with some, like yourself, there are others like Tack where it's a pleasure to speak with them about their theism (most of the time), and that has to do entirely with the individual in question. Just because you are frustratingly retarded there is no need to equate that to every other theist.

Quote: The whole atheist V theist debate, when you look closely, is more often than not a disgruntled ex christain V christian debate, except that not everyone fits into either.

Assumption central!

(July 21, 2010 at 8:01 pm)Godhead Wrote: They seem to feel victimised for their nonbeliefs.

I certainly don't. Sure, a shitload of theists have told me I am going to hell, that I'm evil, etc., but I don't feel victimized. If a person insults you, but it doesn't bother you at all, you hardly feel like a victim.

(July 21, 2010 at 8:01 pm)Godhead Wrote: Maybe some of you live in a country or part of a country where not believing in god is seen as a big deal. However it's obviously not like that everywhere.

That's a damn shame.

(July 21, 2010 at 8:01 pm)Godhead Wrote: Anger. I always sense a lot of anger among atheists on these forums, like a grudge. It's like there's a deep need to "get back" at all theists, for some imagined wrongdoing. I hve to say that it's not a particularly healthy attitue to have.

Haha, there's a lot of anger on every forum on the internet. People just like to freak out online. I don't think there is a need to get back at theists, there are several exasperating attempts to get through to theists. It's a habit we have.

(July 21, 2010 at 8:01 pm)Godhead Wrote: Assumptions. Many atheists assume that a theist would want to preach and convert atheists, or that they feel superior.

I've been told by many Christians that the bible tells them to preach and convert theists, so it is a natural assumption.

(July 21, 2010 at 8:01 pm)Godhead Wrote: Ironically atheists take on those traits themselves quite often.

I won't argue that. I find it hard to avoid pointing out what is irrational about a person's beliefs and trying to make them see reality for what it is.

(July 21, 2010 at 8:01 pm)Godhead Wrote: Also there's often an assumption that when someone introduces themselves as a theist, that they'e a christian.

It happens.

(July 21, 2010 at 8:01 pm)Godhead Wrote: I've read many posts addressed to me and others which mention "your bible" and other christian references, even before the person knows whether or not the theist is a christian. It's quite bizarre, and melodramatic.

Melodramatic: Characterized by being exaggerated, sensationalized, or overemotional. Nope, it's not melodramatic. It is a failed assumption. The end.

Quote: What you should realise is that not all theists hate you, and there's no need to be angry all the time and lash out, and that not all theists are christians, or want to preach at you, and that having all that anger inside you will only harm you.

I'm going to assume that you're not a psychiatrist and that the only reason you are trying to tell me that being angry at theists is going to hurt me is because you are trying to convert me.

Quote:The whole atheist V theist debate, when you look closely, is more often than not a disgruntled ex christain V christian debate, except that not everyone fits into either.

I don't think that is true, but there is no data to support either belief, so let's just say they are theist vs atheist debates and leave it at that.

Void -

Obviously you haven't met most theists. I suspect that you're speaking only from your own experience. Even if 99% of theists that you encounter are christians (which would in itself condition you to expect them all to be - unless you choose not to let it do so), it is very easy to ask. Asking the question isn't such a challenge that it can't be done. Just type it. It may not be your job to define a theist's beliefs, but if you don't know ask. Otherwise you'll find yourself addressing a christian who isn't even there. If you are frustrated by anything I say or my beliefs or the way I express them or the fact that I can't prove them or even my lack of critical thinking, whose problem is it? I can assure you that it's not mine.

Shell B -

Why do you feel the need to get through to theists? Don't preachers feel the same way about getting through to atheists? It's the same thing, a need to be agreed with. Whichever way you cut it, you want me to be an atheist. Do I want you to be a theist? I don't mind either way, I have no need to convince you, and even if I was the first ever theist on earth to come up with airtight proof that god exists which no atheist could dispute, you know I'd probably keep it to myself unless asked. Could you say the same if you had absolute evidene that there's no possible way at all that a god could exist and which would convince all theists? I doubt it. I think you'd shout it from the rooftops in the hope that all are finally deconverted. That's the difference, I have no need. It's actually none of my business what your beliefs or nonbeliefs are. And if I had the power to convert you, I wouldn't, I'd leave you just as you are.

(July 21, 2010 at 8:59 pm)Godhead Wrote: Why do you feel the need to get through to theists?

I only feel that need about certain things and it doesn't apply only to theists. I don't give a shit if you believe in god, but if you tell me that I'm going to hell, the Earth is only a few thousand years old or any other such nonsense, then I feel the need to argue the point. I can't disprove the existence of god, but I can disprove a lot of other mumbo-jumbo. As for needing to get through to theists, I don't feel that way. I told you what I saw in the forum, in reply to your assertion about atheists. I never told you how I felt about it. You are quite the leaper.

(July 21, 2010 at 8:59 pm)Godhead Wrote: Don't preachers feel the same way about getting through to atheists? It's the same thing, a need to be agreed with.

Preachers are a pain in the ass and, no, it isn't a need to be agreed with. In my case, it is a wish that people would wake the fuck up and stop wasting time and money on religion. In the preacher's case, he wants me to worship him as a servant of god. It's a power trip.

(July 21, 2010 at 8:59 pm)Godhead Wrote: Whichever way you cut it, you want me to be an atheist.

I'm going to be honest. Hopefully, this will not come off as insulting. I don't know you. I really don't care what you do at all, literally. I don't give a shit.

(July 21, 2010 at 8:59 pm)Godhead Wrote: Do I want you to be a theist? I don't mind either way, I have no need to convince you, and even if I was the first ever theist on earth to come up with airtight proof that god exists which no atheist could dispute, you know I'd probably keep it to myself unless asked.

It doesn't matter. I don't care what you want (no offense) and no such person will ever exist.

(July 21, 2010 at 8:59 pm)Godhead Wrote: Could you say the same if you had absolute evidene that there's no possible way at all that a god could exist and which would convince all theists?

It doesn't matter. I will never have that evidence. It would be pointless for me to ponder the idea.

(July 21, 2010 at 8:59 pm)Godhead Wrote: I doubt it. I think you'd shout it from the rooftops in the hope that all are finally deconverted.

I wouldn't shout it from the rooftops like a scientologist. I would write an article about it. Duh.

(July 21, 2010 at 8:59 pm)Godhead Wrote: That's the difference, I have no need.

Then why do you argue (if you could call it that) your position so much?

(July 21, 2010 at 8:59 pm)Godhead Wrote: It's actually none of my business what your beliefs or nonbeliefs are.

If you don't want to discuss it, what are you doing here?

(July 21, 2010 at 8:59 pm)Godhead Wrote: And if I had the power to convert you, I wouldn't, I'd leave you just as you are.

Irrelevant.

@Godhead: You are way off base. I'm not actively angry. I have anger about a few things, as do we all, but I am not actively angry. I do not have rages that need controlling, as it seems you are trying to suggest. If you think I have seemed angry when dealing with you, you are misinterpreting frustration as anger and 'making fun of' as 'lashing out'. I can honestly say that I have not typed a word on these forums out of anger, without considering what I was saying and doing. If I seem to express anger, then I purposely expressed anger. If I call your beliefs retarded, what I am really saying is that I think your beliefs are retarded. No anger. Just ridicule.

From my experience, those with religion are far angrier than those without. Do theists anger me? No... not unless they say or do something that pisses me off... and it takes a lot to piss me off. Most of the time, all it takes to piss them off is say, "I'm an atheist." Does Relgion anger me? Oh, yes. Yes, it does.

Do I agree that anger can be hurtful and/or harmful if internalized? Yes. Of course. Every time. Do I agree that anger can be hurtful and/or harmful if it is expressed? Yes... if it is expressed in a hurtful and/or harmful manner, i.e. not every time it is expressed.

I would ask you to, please, stop assuming you know what is in my mind or how I actually feel about anything. You do not.