A problem with how theists think.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

The Mormon hierarchy comes right out and says with their revelations and pronouncements, the thinking has ALREADY BEEN DONE.  Clearly, the pew warmers and check writers are not encouraged to ask questions or spend any time considering the folderol and balderdash the LDS poobahs regurgitate all over them.

Religious bigwigs don't like it when people question their favorite religious fairy tales.   Some will even kill the person who dares ask the questions.

[vorlon13]

At your local LDS franchise, you get to talk to the elders, and if you don't adjust your attitude, you'll be shown the door.

[RoadRunner79]

I have heard and seen many theists ask "How did the universe come into existence? Where did the first cell/matter come from? Where did the Big Bang come from? etc" something along those lines. (Although that is a really weak argument and isn't evidence at all.)

You say that is illogical, but really, if you think about it, how logical is it that the first thing to exist/be is insanely complex with super intelligence, with the ability to do exactly everything, see everything, even change/break the laws of the universe (omnipotent). Pretty much do everything he/she/it wills.

I am curious about your "if you think about it" statement here.... could you please expound on this more, and why you are questioning "how logical is it".

[drfuzzy]

The Mormon hierarchy comes right out and says with their revelations and pronouncements, the thinking has ALREADY BEEN DONE.  Clearly, the pew warmers and check writers are not encouraged to ask questions or spend any time considering the folderol and balderdash the LDS poobahs regurgitate all over them.

Not ENCOURAGED to ask questions?  Vorlon, I have been in fundie churches where questioning was plainly said to be a mortal sin.  I once got up the guts to ask my Mother why this one Bible passage disagreed with this other one, telling the same story.  How did she know which one was right?  She dragged me to the preacher, who told me emphatically that both were right, and they had me stay for -- I dunno, seemed like hours -- on my knees in the front of the church praying for the faith to trust that god was perfect and would explain everything when I got to heaven.  Dozens of people kept coming in and praying with me ("Oh, Lord, let your spirit descend upon this confused little girl") and laying their hands on my back and shoulders.  I didn't like it.

Xtians ask for answers to questions that science can't answer, because they think the question has already been answered.  God told 'em god didit.  They're actually honestly confused when the poor atheist doesn't believe that.

[The Grand Nudger]

Road, if all that you see here, around you...everything in this world, positively screams out for an explanation, for cause.  So too, would a god.   If a person was consistently applying whatever thought process led them to the former, the latter is inescapable.   If, in the latter, one feels that no further explanation, no further cause, is necessary, then again, a person applying whatever thought process led them to that conclusion, consistently, would see no such requirement for the former.

Either the same thought process works in both cases, or it doesn't work at all.

[vorlon13]

The Mormon hierarchy comes right out and says with their revelations and pronouncements, the thinking has ALREADY BEEN DONE.  Clearly, the pew warmers and check writers are not encouraged to ask questions or spend any time considering the folderol and balderdash the LDS poobahs regurgitate all over them.

Not ENCOURAGED to ask questions?  Vorlon, I have been in fundie churches where questioning was plainly said to be a mortal sin.  I once got up the guts to ask my Mother why this one Bible passage disagreed with this other one, telling the same story.  How did she know which one was right?  She dragged me to the preacher, who told me emphatically that both were right, and they had me stay for -- I dunno, seemed like hours -- on my knees in the front of the church praying for the faith to trust that god was perfect and would explain everything when I got to heaven.  Dozens of people kept coming in and praying with me ("Oh, Lord, let your spirit descend upon this confused little girl") and laying their hands on my back and shoulders.  I didn't like it.

Xtians ask for answers to questions that science can't answer, because they think the question has already been answered.  God told 'em god didit.  They're actually honestly confused when the poor atheist doesn't believe that.

and so many Mormon apologists wind up excommunicated too, thinking about their bat shit crazy theology Joe Smith shit out his ass can do that to ya

[RozKek]

I have heard and seen many theists ask "How did the universe come into existence? Where did the first cell/matter come from? Where did the Big Bang come from? etc" something along those lines. (Although that is a really weak argument and isn't evidence at all.)

You say that is illogical, but really, if you think about it, how logical is it that the first thing to exist/be is insanely complex with super intelligence, with the ability to do exactly everything, see everything, even change/break the laws of the universe (omnipotent). Pretty much do everything he/she/it wills.

I am curious about your "if you think about it" statement here.... could you please expound on this more, and why you are questioning "how logical is it".

I don't understand what you want me to expand on "if you think about it". It's quite simple. Think about if it is logical that the first thing to exist/be is insanely complex with super intelligence, with the ability to do exactly everything, see everything, even change/break the laws of the universe (omnipotent).

"And I am questioning how logical is it?" because many theists seem to think the existence of everything is illogical without a God and I am asking you theists how logical is it that the first thing to exist/be is insanely complex with super intelligence, with the ability to do exactly everything, see everything, even change/break the laws of the universe (omnipotent).

I don't think I can be more clear than that. I want you to answer how logical it is from your perspective, and good points/arguments to why it would be logical, it seems like you're trying to dodge my question.

[Chas]

At your local LDS franchise, you get to talk to the elders, and if you don't adjust your attitude, you'll be shown the door.

So, there's no downside.

[vorlon13]

Other than that fucking 10% tithe they squeeze out of everybody.

Walking away from that kind of investment would sting a little . . .

[Esquilax]

I think many bypass those because they're heavily affected by a state of cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias. They just have to realise it, but unfortunately many people even ignore their confirmation bias and their cognitive dissonance.

It's kind of a chicken and egg problem: which came first, the confirmation bias, or the religious text that specifically cultivates that attitude in order to make its claims more palatable? Can't buy into the latter without the former, and as theistic attitudes to every other religion but their own demonstrate, the former isn't universally present whenever they read religious texts anyway.