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RE: Human Freedom
April 15, 2016 at 4:22 pm
(April 15, 2016 at 8:36 am)Ignorant Wrote: Is this to say that, for you, "human freedom" has no real meaning? This is no experiment. This is a philosophical thread on an Atheist forums. It's not a test =).
There's absolutely nothing philosophical about it. If you have enough money to tell everyone to get stuffed, you might be free. If you don't, you have to suck up to certain people. Hence, no freedom. Single mother or father, slaving away at two jobs, no freedom. Minimal wages, no freedom. Billionaire, freedom.
Freedom is a commodity and a luxurious one at that. Maybe for someone living at a remote island, enjoying an alternative lifestyle, the definition may be differently. But in the Western world, it's money or rot in the streets.
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RE: Human Freedom
April 15, 2016 at 4:32 pm
(April 15, 2016 at 4:22 pm)abaris Wrote: There's absolutely nothing philosophical about it. If you have enough money to tell everyone to get stuffed, you might be free. If you don't, you have to suck up to certain people. Hence, no freedom. Single mother or father, slaving away at two jobs, no freedom. Minimal wages, no freedom. Billionaire, freedom.
Freedom is a commodity and a luxurious one at that. Maybe for someone living at a remote island, enjoying an alternative lifestyle, the definition may be differently. But in the Western world, it's money or rot in the streets.
That sounds like a pretty sad reality. There does seem to be a certain kind of slavery imposed on the poor and marginalized in society. Do you really think that the prospect of more money is the only hope those people have to live freely? Maybe I should ask what you think living freely means?
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RE: Human Freedom
April 15, 2016 at 4:38 pm
(This post was last modified: April 15, 2016 at 4:40 pm by abaris.)
My answer.
Communist, but true apart from the ideology. There's nothing philosophical about freedom. No talk will fill anyone's belly.
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RE: Human Freedom
April 15, 2016 at 4:56 pm
(This post was last modified: April 15, 2016 at 5:00 pm by Ignorant.)
@ abaris
I don't know what you mean when you use the word "philosophical".
And "Arbeit macht frei" was written on the gate at Auschwitz: "Work sets you free" - I wouldn't exactly call that place a model of human freedom.
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RE: Human Freedom
April 15, 2016 at 4:57 pm
The problem with Communism is the same as any other movement:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS-0Az7dgRY
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.
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RE: Human Freedom
April 15, 2016 at 5:00 pm
(April 15, 2016 at 4:56 pm)Ignorant Wrote: I don't know what you mean when you use the word "philosophical".
It's a luxury. Someone finding rather big and enjoyable words, but ultimately not filling anyone's belly or paying their hospital bills.
In short, you have to have a certain level of security to enjoy it.
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RE: Human Freedom
April 15, 2016 at 5:03 pm
Death.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental.
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RE: Human Freedom
April 15, 2016 at 5:06 pm
(This post was last modified: April 15, 2016 at 5:13 pm by Ignorant.)
(April 15, 2016 at 5:00 pm)abaris Wrote: (April 15, 2016 at 4:56 pm)Ignorant Wrote: I don't know what you mean when you use the word "philosophical".
It's a luxury. Someone finding rather big and enjoyable words, but ultimately not filling anyone's belly or paying their hospital bills.
In short, you have to have a certain level of security to enjoy it.
Wisdom is for everyone, including the poor [edit]. Technical discussions about specifics, obviously, is not. Unwise people fill very few bellys or pay many hospital bills. Wise people may do both and help others to do the same. If you are for that, you are for philosophy. Don't be fooled, marxism/socialism is a philosophy (more accurately an ideology [edit]).
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RE: Human Freedom
April 15, 2016 at 5:23 pm
(April 15, 2016 at 5:06 pm)Ignorant Wrote: (April 15, 2016 at 5:00 pm)abaris Wrote: It's a luxury. Someone finding rather big and enjoyable words, but ultimately not filling anyone's belly or paying their hospital bills.
In short, you have to have a certain level of security to enjoy it.
Wisdom is for everyone, including the poor [edit]. Technical discussions about specifics, obviously, is not. Unwise people fill very few bellys or pay many hospital bills. Wise people may do both and help others to do the same. If you are for that, you are for philosophy. Don't be fooled, marxism/socialism is a philosophy (more accurately an ideology [edit]).
And Capitalism is not?
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.
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RE: Human Freedom
April 15, 2016 at 5:31 pm
(April 15, 2016 at 5:23 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: And Capitalism is not?
What makes you think I would say that capitalism is not an ideology?
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