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(June 4, 2016 at 6:41 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Sorry, Lek, but God bears a good deal more responsibility for things than just allowing them. If God is omnipotent and creative, then God created the decisions made by human beings (check of statement: If there is anything that happens without God's having created it, then God is not omnipotent). It isn't as if God just stands idly by and lets 14 years old Susan be raped, tortured and killed - God created rapists, torturers, killers, and the desires and decisions to rape, torture and kill. God, in effect, is ultimately responsible for every act of evil that has ever occurred, both moral and natural (if you like, I'll be delighted to point out why free will cannot exist in the context of an all-powerful God, but that's not immediately germane).
You might want to look up the Parable Of The Insane Dog Breeder. It's a quick read and explains the ultimate paucity of Christian morality as pertains to moral evil.
Boru
No. God created beings who could make evil decisions, but he gave us the opportunity to make our own decisions. Knowing what decisions we will make is not the same as actually making the decisions. I will agree that God could stop evil from happening, but then he would be going against the decision he made to give us free will. We would be nothing but puppets and you wouldn't have the choice to reject him either. We do the evil acts, but if you want to believe that God is responsible for it all then go ahead.
Wrong again. As an omnipotent, omniscient Being, God created everything, including our decisions and choices. In the context of such a Being, there can logically be no free will. If you buy into the rubbish that God created the universe, then God knew, from the beginning of time, that I would be an atheist - I had no choice in the matter, just as you had no choice in believing the most outlandish collection of fairy stories ever inflicted on the western world. If God made everything, then God made me an atheist, made you a believer, made rapists, torturers, and murderers. God is directly responsible for evil, full stop.
Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
Quote:No. God created beings who could make evil decisions, but he gave us the opportunity to make our own decisions. Knowing what decisions we will make is not the same as actually making the decisions. I will agree that God could stop evil from happening, but then he would be going against the decision he made to give us free will. We would be nothing but puppets and you wouldn't have the choice to reject him either. We do the evil acts, but if you want to believe that God is responsible for it all then go ahead.
You know, the way you describe your 'god' you make him sound like a real asshole. Perhaps you should re-think your devotion to such a useless sack of shit.
(June 4, 2016 at 6:41 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Sorry, Lek, but God bears a good deal more responsibility for things than just allowing them. If God is omnipotent and creative, then God created the decisions made by human beings (check of statement: If there is anything that happens without God's having created it, then God is not omnipotent). It isn't as if God just stands idly by and lets 14 years old Susan be raped, tortured and killed - God created rapists, torturers, killers, and the desires and decisions to rape, torture and kill. God, in effect, is ultimately responsible for every act of evil that has ever occurred, both moral and natural (if you like, I'll be delighted to point out why free will cannot exist in the context of an all-powerful God, but that's not immediately germane).
You might want to look up the Parable Of The Insane Dog Breeder. It's a quick read and explains the ultimate paucity of Christian morality as pertains to moral evil.
Boru
Quote:No. God created beings who could make evil decisions, but he gave us the opportunity to make our own decisions. Knowing what decisions we will make is not the same as actually making the decisions. I will agree that God could stop evil from happening, but then he would be going against the decision he made to give us free will. We would be nothing but puppets and you wouldn't have the choice to reject him either. We do the evil acts, but if you want to believe that God is responsible for it all then go ahead.
(June 4, 2016 at 7:25 pm)Lek Wrote: No. God created beings who could make evil decisions, but he gave us the opportunity to make our own decisions. Knowing what decisions we will make is not the same as actually making the decisions. I will agree that God could stop evil from happening, but then he would be going against the decision he made to give us free will. We would be nothing but puppets and you wouldn't have the choice to reject him either. We do the evil acts, but if you want to believe that God is responsible for it all then go ahead.
Wrong again. As an omnipotent, omniscient Being, God created everything, including our decisions and choices. In the context of such a Being, there can logically be no free will. If you buy into the rubbish that God created the universe, then God knew, from the beginning of time, that I would be an atheist - I had no choice in the matter, just as you had no choice in believing the most outlandish collection of fairy stories ever inflicted on the western world. If God made everything, then God made me an atheist, made you a believer, made rapists, torturers, and murderers. God is directly responsible for evil, full stop.
Boru
If we assume that the "God", of christianity or Islam is the truth, then God created beings who could make evil decisions, but he gave us the opportunity to make our own decisions. Knowing what decisions we will make is not the same as actually making the decisions. But we need to consider the process of creation. Let us say that I am a really nasty person, an atheist and a rapist, and serial killer of the worst kind. The theology says that "God" allowed me to make the decisions, and did not make the decisions for me. Nevertheless, this "God" is still responsible, because an omniscient and omnipotent god could have conceived of a universe in which either I do not exist, or in which I of my own supposed free will, am a really good guy, with a social conscience, and a good moral code, and who never does any harm.
Thus "God" chose between universe 1, and universe 2, and opted for universe 1. Yet the theology still says that "God" is not responsible in that case.
As a thought experiment, if I were to let a passionate religious extremist loose at a gun show, knowing that (s)he was highly likely to try and kill people, and that fanatic grabbed a gun and shot a lot of people, killing many. Although the religious nutter was the one directly making the decisions, I would still bear a major responsibility because, (if I have freewill), because I could have chosen otherwise. Same for "God", and his options in universe-creation. Similarly, if I allow a person to drive a car knowing that it had bad brakes, tyres and steering, and they have an accident as a result. I would have to bear a major responsibility, even though you might say that the driver chose to drive the car, and the car might not have crashed.
But it's worse in the case of "God" because that god would more than knowledge of mere likelihood, but in prescience would have full certainty of what was to unfold; and before creation, (if such a concept makes any sense). As such, "God" had options. He will have opted for the universe 'with a really nasty person, an atheist and a rapist, and serial killer of the worst kind', over a universe with a' really good guy, with a social conscience, and a good moral code, and who never does any harm'. That is regardless of the freewill or otherwise, of the person (me).
There are no atheists in terrorist training camps.
Quote:5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Isaiah 45
If you believe this holy horseshit "god" seems to be proud of himself for creating evil.
(June 4, 2016 at 7:25 pm)Lek Wrote: No. God created beings who could make evil decisions, but he gave us the opportunity to make our own decisions. Knowing what decisions we will make is not the same as actually making the decisions.
So if there was a God he would be sitting there and thinking "Oh shit what have I started?" Oh apparently to apologists he has on several occasions take the flood and the Ark ..... How do you manage to maintain a belief in such an asshole ?
Religion is the top shelf of the supernatural supermarket ... Madog
(June 4, 2016 at 8:44 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Wrong again. As an omnipotent, omniscient Being, God created everything, including our decisions and choices. In the context of such a Being, there can logically be no free will. If you buy into the rubbish that God created the universe, then God knew, from the beginning of time, that I would be an atheist - I had no choice in the matter, just as you had no choice in believing the most outlandish collection of fairy stories ever inflicted on the western world. If God made everything, then God made me an atheist, made you a believer, made rapists, torturers, and murderers. God is directly responsible for evil, full stop.
Boru
I can't agree with you on that. God made us with the capacity to make our own choices. We alone decide what choices they are going to be. In no way does God make the choices. You chose to be an atheist totally on your own. God didn't coerce you into your choice and doesn't own your decision.
(June 4, 2016 at 9:25 pm)Minimalist Wrote: You know, the way you describe your 'god' you make him sound like a real asshole. Perhaps you should re-think your devotion to such a useless sack of shit.
A being who created the universe doesn't seem useless to me Mini. Of course, he did create you. Hmmmmm.........
June 5, 2016 at 12:21 pm (This post was last modified: June 5, 2016 at 12:26 pm by madog.)
(June 5, 2016 at 12:09 pm)Lek Wrote: You chose to be an atheist totally on your own.
Bullshit
We were born atheists, we just chose not to go on to believe in a God ... or those that were indoctrinated decided to return to their state prior to their indoctrination. We now choose not to be swayed by your fairy tales ...
Religion is the top shelf of the supernatural supermarket ... Madog
(June 4, 2016 at 8:44 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Wrong again. As an omnipotent, omniscient Being, God created everything, including our decisions and choices. In the context of such a Being, there can logically be no free will. If you buy into the rubbish that God created the universe, then God knew, from the beginning of time, that I would be an atheist - I had no choice in the matter, just as you had no choice in believing the most outlandish collection of fairy stories ever inflicted on the western world. If God made everything, then God made me an atheist, made you a believer, made rapists, torturers, and murderers. God is directly responsible for evil, full stop.
Boru
I can't agree with you on that. God made us with the capacity to make our own choices. We alone decide what choices they are going to be. In no way does God make the choices. You chose to be an atheist totally on your own. God didn't coerce you into your choice and doesn't own your decision.
The fuck are you on about you cannot have free will with a omnipotent creator. Either god knows jack shit about anything
or he knows everything which is it?
