Can I just say, and I'm just being honest...

[robvalue]

Can I just rant:

Things look so different now to back when I put in my vote to remain. I’ve learnt a whole lot, and things are far less clear cut than I thought.

The sheer audacity of the government has astounded me. Even though I "lost" in the vote, I expect the winning side to be upheld. That has systematically not been done. The MPs voting "no deal" off the table was, in my opinion, voting to mostly ignore the referendum result. There was no mention of deals in the disastrously poorly run referendum choices, and I’d wager most people who voted to leave wanted to do so without being still tied to the EU.

Having done that, now today they are voting on whether to uphold their own promise to deliver Brexit today, deal or no deal. They don’t have a deal currently, and it’s either incompetence or sabotage to be holding a final vote on the final day. The result should be to leave with no deal. My research indicates this deal they are voting on will, in effect, make us subservient to the EU; it's the worst possible outcome for the actual people of Britain. This deal pleases no one. Remain voters don’t want this, nor do most leave voters. The people who want this are the ones at the top.

So fuck this horse shit. Unfortunately, there is no cause of action which is ideal and the clear best option. Like I said, I think this deal is awful and a clear attempt to stay under EU control while technically leaving it. The fact that our "government" would want that for us shows how much they care about our interests. So that leaves remaining, or leaving with no deal. The former will be chaotic, no one can really say how it will work out. The latter, however sensible it appears on the surface, is ultimately an awful future for us in my opinion. Check out article 11 and 13 for the kind of organisation we're dealing with.

Both sides ran dirty campaigns filled with lies. Both sides had hidden agendas. But on reflection, I think the leave side were more honest and more interested in discussing actual issues and facts. I now understand the validity of many things they said, even though they may not have framed them very well. Of course they had to play dirty, because the remain campaign were doing the same. Well, they didn’t have to, but they’d have lost if they didn’t. I don’t support anyone playing dirty, of course.

So on balance, I think the vote today is the final piece of either an incompetent mess or calculated sabotage, and I’m leaning towards the latter. They should do what they promised, and leave today; if no deal has been properly agreed by this stage then that’s too bad. They’ve had forever to fucking sort it out. This flurry of activity at the last moment stinks of foul play.

[pocaracas]

Can I just rant:

Things look so different now to back when I put in my vote to remain. I’ve learnt a whole lot, and things are far less clear cut than I thought.

The sheer audacity of the government has astounded me. Even though I "lost" in the vote, I expect the winning side to be upheld.

As it was a non-binding referendum, you shouldn't really expect that.
You should expect only that such a result would be taken into account.

That has systematically not been done. The MPs voting "no deal" off the table was, in my opinion, voting to mostly ignore the referendum result.

No... voting "no deal" off the table was a way to prevent the most disastrous outcome imaginable. I think that's why you vote to have people representing you. They should be the ones who know or are aware of the repercussions of particular decisions and decide on the best for the country.... operative word, here, "should".

There was no mention of deals in the disastrously poorly run referendum choices, and I’d wager most people who voted to leave wanted to do so without being still tied to the EU.

True, no mention of how the exit was going to be... that's why so many would like to have a second referendum, this time one that clarifies that part.

Having done that, now today they are voting on whether to uphold their own promise to deliver Brexit today, deal or no deal. They don’t have a deal currently, and it’s either incompetence or sabotage to be holding a final vote on the final day. The result should be to leave with no deal. My research indicates this deal they are voting on will, in effect, make us subservient to the EU; it's the worst possible outcome for the actual people of Britain. This deal pleases no one. Remain voters don’t want this, nor do most leave voters. The people who want this are the ones at the top.

The people who want this deal are trying to uphold the result of the referendum (which, as you pointed out, had no mention of any deal), while providing the smoothest possible exit, disrupting as little as possible both the UK and the EU.

So fuck this horse shit. Unfortunately, there is no cause of action which is ideal and the clear best option. Like I said, I think this deal is awful and a clear attempt to stay under EU control while technically leaving it. The fact that our "government" would want that for us shows how much they care about our interests. So that leaves remaining, or leaving with no deal. The former will be chaotic, no one can really say how it will work out. The latter, however sensible it appears on the surface, is ultimately an awful future for us in my opinion. Check out article 11 and 13 for the kind of organisation we're dealing with.

Why would remaining be chaotic? It would be just a continuation of the status quo. Is the UK in chaos, as it is?
I'd say that the uncertainty concerning the future is making it more and more chaotic, yes, but that's hardly the fault of it being in the EU.

Both sides ran dirty campaigns filled with lies. Both sides had hidden agendas. But on reflection, I think the leave side were more honest and more interested in discussing actual issues and facts. I now understand the validity of many things they said, even though they may not have framed them very well. Of course they had to play dirty, because the remain campaign were doing the same. Well, they didn’t have to, but they’d have lost if they didn’t. I don’t support anyone playing dirty, of course.

Yes, both played dirty. Some dirtier than others... perhaps the winning ones can be said to have been dirtier by omitting the difficulty that was going to be the actual exit?

So on balance, I think the vote today is the final piece of either an incompetent mess or calculated sabotage, and I’m leaning towards the latter. They should do what they promised, and leave today; if no deal has been properly agreed by this stage then that’s too bad. They’ve had forever to fucking sort it out. This flurry of activity at the last moment stinks of foul play.

If no-deal leads to a sharp decline in the UK's GDP, as was announced by the Bank of England a few months ago, how do you think that will affect you? Your family? Your friends? The services upon which you rely? Healthcare?

[robvalue]

Whoops, I got remain and leave mixed up above there. Leaving would be chaotic. Staying would be ultimately disastrous, for reasons I’m not going to go into here. Just wanted to get that all off my chest. Both options are bad, but the government has cleverly fucked everyone over while making out it’s acting in our best interest. There’s an awful lot of people who haven’t bought it though, and it’s going to be very interesting to see what the reaction is. I suspect they think they can get away with this, but they’re obviously shitting their pants somewhat due to the very overt flexing of muscles that’s happening tomorrow.

(I’ve been doing an awful lot of research into a lot of things, but it’s not the kind of thing people generally want to hear about. Suffice to say there’s a lot more going on than meets the eye.)

[The Grand Nudger]

CIJS

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

-Hanlons Razor

[Shell B]

The Brexit kerfuffle has already cost your average retirement investor thousands, leading some to return to work after reaching full retirement. No thanks.

[outtathereligioncloset]

(NOT in reference to anything political...)

Never attribute to stupidity that which is clearly motivated by malice.
(Somewhat of a family motto, of late.)

[robvalue]

I’m a one man band
Got my eggs in the sand
Gonna find all the keys
To unlock the land

I’m a one man band
Gonna make a stand
This time it’s for keeps
Events have all been planned

I’m a man one band
Gonna stick it to the man
I’ll collect lots of sticks
For that very purpose

I’m a one one band
One and one is two
Who do you think you are
Bringing that weak sauce

I’m a band one band
The middle one is key
If you don’t get it by now
Then neither do I

I’m a fat old man
Time has not been kind
I’m just some fucking chump
But at least I had a try

[robvalue]

CIJS: Of course there will be ones that have been cultivated or purchased, but some will be genuine. The problem is when the genuine ones grow to a certain size. They start to face very difficult decisions.

It is inevitable that they will be noticed, and will start to receive instructions. What then? Compromise for the common good, or continue to grow on their own? Being so bold would certainly be noble, and easy to cheer on from the armchair, but realistically they will be targeted by regressive action of some kind. So as always, it’s about the lesser of two evils. The cruelest thing about being pragmatic is having to pretend, because to do otherwise will just draw more attention. I do understand this.

[robvalue]

CIJS:

I don’t know why they’re even pretending to take us into account anymore. Now they’re just blatantly experimenting on us to find what strategy they can use to demolish the whole thing, as has been the plan all along. They blurt out all this crap, which we really don’t need to know all the details of, and they sit back and see who will buy what. They lie, cheat and steal, and do so blatantly. They rely on the passage of time to dull our memories and to give themselves permission to be inconsistent.

I feel like most people must have figured out what’s going on here by now. Even some people who usually take things on faith have become severely disillusioned.

[Sal]

CIJS your politics are lacking, and too much of the same promises and enticing slogans. Not enough or realistic actions are taken.