The "Cultural Context" Excuse

[LadyForCamus]

Just looked at the 1 John 3:12 verse Huggy Bear seems to consider a smoking gun for the "Serpent Seed" theory.

Knowing he tends to be annoyed at the NIV for taking out things, I looked to the Amplified version which does the exact opposite and tries to put the more ambiguous parts (parts that the 1st century Greek-speaking reader would have taken for granted, that leave 21st century Anglophone readers scratching their heads) into context:

12 [And] not be like Cain who [took his nature and got his motivation] from the evil one and slew his brother. And why did he slay him? Because his deeds (activities, works) were wicked and malicious and his brother’s were righteous (virtuous).

Saying he was "of that wicked one" because he killed his brother and apparently single-handedly took sin up to a new level really makes more sense than saying he was "of that wicked one" because he was the literal seed of the serpent.

And, I noticed he blew off Numbers 5:11-31 to rant about the NIV (and I don't think any of us copy-pasted it from the NIV), so, here it is in its full KJV glory.

11 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

12 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him,

13 And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner;

14 And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:

15 Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance.

16 And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the Lord:

17 And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water:

18 And the priest shall set the woman before the Lord, and uncover the woman's head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse:

19 And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse:

20 But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband:

21 Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The Lord make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the Lord doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;

22 And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.

23 And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall blot them out with the bitter water:

24 And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter.

25 Then the priest shall take the jealousy offering out of the woman's hand, and shall wave the offering before the Lord, and offer it upon the altar:

26 And the priest shall take an handful of the offering, even the memorial thereof, and burn it upon the altar, and afterward shall cause the woman to drink the water.

27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.

28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.

29 This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;

30 Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the Lord, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.

31 Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.

It's taken directly from your beloved King James Bible and details a form of abortion that God not only sanctions, but takes part in.

Congratulations, Huggy Bear. You now officially have no excuse to blow off actually talking about this.

I've noticed Huggy hasn't responded to either of your challenging posts, Rev. I wonder why that is? [emoji56]

[LadyForCamus]

Let's all pitch in and commission a 3D CGI artist to make us some Biblical Old Testament Genesis porn comics. I'm not much into the tentacle stuff but that's on the table if we have a ssssexual ssssserpent in the picture. Also maybe some good incest action, you know, to propagate the species and all. I mean let's be real, what Lot's daughters did was pretty hot. Speaking of Lot, there's the "Take my virgin daughters and rape the shit out of them" angle. Also the Nephilim will have the giant fetish covered. Maybe the demons can be futanari for all you freaks out there. Oh wait, plot hole, the demons don't get invented until the New Testament when there's the Greek influence. OK, maybe no fuanari... sorry guys.

Good idea! We might just become millionaires! [emoji38]

[Rev. Rye]

Let's all pitch in and commission a 3D CGI artist to make us some Biblical Old Testament Genesis porn comics.  I'm not much into the tentacle stuff but that's on the table if we have a ssssexual ssssserpent in the picture.  Also maybe some good incest action, you know, to propagate the species and all.  I mean let's be real, what Lot's daughters did was pretty hot.  Speaking of Lot, there's the "Take my virgin daughters and rape the shit out of them" angle.  Also the Nephilim will have the giant fetish covered.  Maybe the demons can be futanari for all you freaks out there. Oh wait, plot hole, the demons don't get invented until the New Testament when there's the Greek influence.  OK, maybe no fuanari... sorry guys.

Good idea!  We might just become millionaires! [emoji38]

To be fair, R. Crumb actually did his own version of the Book of Genesis, with lots of sex and nudity, but, of course, he wound up doing the whole thing completely straight, taking the text verbatim from the Bible (without even cutting anything from Genesis).

[Nihilist Virus]

Good idea!  We might just become millionaires! [emoji38]

To be fair, R. Crumb actually did his own version of the Book of Genesis, with lots of sex and nudity, but, of course, he wound up doing the whole thing completely straight, taking the text verbatim from the Bible (without even cutting anything from Genesis).

Did he include Eve fucking the serpent?

[Rev. Rye]

To be fair, R. Crumb actually did his own version of the Book of Genesis, with lots of sex and nudity, but, of course, he wound up doing the whole thing completely straight, taking the text verbatim from the Bible (without even cutting anything from Genesis).

Did he include Eve fucking the serpent?

Oh, no. Granted, there is one panel where his tongue lines up with Eve's bare nipple, but while he does look like this:



Crumb does not seem to have co-signed with the serpent seed theory.

[Huggy Bear]

Just looked at the 1 John 3:12 verse Huggy Bear seems to consider a smoking gun for the "Serpent Seed" theory.

Knowing he tends to be annoyed at the NIV for taking out things, I looked to the Amplified version which does the exact opposite and tries to put the more ambiguous parts (parts that the 1st century Greek-speaking reader would have taken for granted, that leave 21st century Anglophone readers scratching their heads) into context:

12 [And] not be like Cain who [took his nature and got his motivation] from the evil one and slew his brother. And why did he slay him? Because his deeds (activities, works) were wicked and malicious and his brother’s were righteous (virtuous).

Saying he was "of that wicked one" because he killed his brother and apparently single-handedly took sin up to a new level really makes more sense than saying he was "of that wicked one" because he was the literal seed of the serpent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amplified_Bible

Brackets: contain clarifying words or comments not actually expressed in the immediate original text.

So your solution is to post a version of that Bible which gives the translators opinion [which is why it is bracketed] of the word instead of the actual word? 

Here is the literal translation from Greek.
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInter...f/1jo3.pdf



Note how the literal translation says "Cain out of the wicked one was". The Greek word used is ἐκ ek

   

Note where it says "emission out of"

ἐκ • ‎(ek)

  1. (of place)
            1. (of motion) Out of, from
            2. from, with the source of
            3. to denote change from one place or condition to another
            4. to express separation of distinction from a number
            5. (of position) outside, beyond
  2. (of time)
            1.from, since
            2. (of particular points of time) just, after
            3. during, in
  3. (of origin)
            1. (of materials) made out of something
            2. (of descent, parentage) descended from
            3. (of causation) done by someone, something
            4. of the cause, instrument, or means by which a thing is done
            5. from, according to
            6. turns a following noun into a periphrastic adverb
            7. (with numerals) in such an order

Also

Matthew 1:20
But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of (ἐκ) the Holy Ghost.

There's that word again...
If you guys would use just a little bit of logic you'd realize that if Jesus was the only man on the earth born with out sin because of his virgin birth, then sex had something to do with original sin.

Guess who else thought it was fruit? Cain. Which is why he made a offering of fruit to God and it was rejected, because he didn't have a revelation of what really happened.

What happened in Eden had nothing to do with fruit, It is told in that manner because every scripture has compound meaning... Did not Jesus say that the scriptures testify of him? So not only is the story of Eden illustrating what happened in the garden it is also illustrating the future crucifixion of Jesus...


besides if you're just going to use whatever version, then how about these.

New Life Version
Do not be like Cain. He was a child of the devil and killed his brother. Why did he kill him? It was because he did what was sinful and his brother did what was right.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Don't be like Cain. He was a child of the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did Cain murder his brother? Because the things Cain did were evil and the things his brother did had God's approval.

Weymouth New Testament
We are not to resemble Cain, who was a child of the Evil one and killed his own brother. And why did he kill him? Because his own actions were wicked and his brother's actions righteous.

---

And, I noticed he blew off Numbers 5:11-31 to rant about the NIV (and I don't think any of us copy-pasted it from the NIV), so, here it is in its full KJV glory.

11 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

12 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him,

13 And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner;

14 And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:

15 Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance.

16 And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the Lord:

17 And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water:

18 And the priest shall set the woman before the Lord, and uncover the woman's head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse:

19 And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse:

20 But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband:

21 Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The Lord make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the Lord doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;

22 And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.

23 And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall blot them out with the bitter water:

24 And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter.

25 Then the priest shall take the jealousy offering out of the woman's hand, and shall wave the offering before the Lord, and offer it upon the altar:

26 And the priest shall take an handful of the offering, even the memorial thereof, and burn it upon the altar, and afterward shall cause the woman to drink the water.

27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.

28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.

29 This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;

30 Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the Lord, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.

31 Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.

It's taken directly from your beloved King James Bible and details a form of abortion that God not only sanctions, but takes part in.

Congratulations, Huggy Bear. You now officially have no excuse to blow off actually talking about this.

First of all Nihilist Virus did post from the NIV (specifically from the 27th verse) which used the word "miscarriage", show me which word in the KJV is equivalent to miscarriage and I'll address it.

secondly scripture had nothing to do with abortion. It was a test administered to women whose husbands accused them of adultery but had no proof, a pregnancy would sorta be proof don't you think?

[Nihilist Virus]

Meanwhile Huggles continues to dodge my questions. Would he be pro choice if Satan had sex with and impregnated a woman, or perhaps a woman in his life?

Furthermore, here's why Numbers 5 is advocating abortion:

The text in the KJV says that her "thigh will rot." Given that it says if she's cleared of charges she will be able to procreate, this implies that if she's guilty she will become barren.

If a woman is already preggers and then is cursed so that she will never be able to bear children, what do you think happens to the precious little bundle of joy in her womb? Are you going to tell me that this passage, which clearly describes itself as being about marital jealousy, actually means to say that the woman will be allowed to give birth to her current child (provided she's preggers) even though the child is the result of adultery?

[Rev. Rye]

---

Just looked at the 1 John 3:12 verse Huggy Bear seems to consider a smoking gun for the "Serpent Seed" theory.

Knowing he tends to be annoyed at the NIV for taking out things, I looked to the Amplified version which does the exact opposite and tries to put the more ambiguous parts (parts that the 1st century Greek-speaking reader would have taken for granted, that leave 21st century Anglophone readers scratching their heads) into context:


Saying he was "of that wicked one" because he killed his brother and apparently single-handedly took sin up to a new level really makes more sense than saying he was "of that wicked one" because he was the literal seed of the serpent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amplified_Bible

Brackets: contain clarifying words or comments not actually expressed in the immediate original text.

So your solution is to post a version of that Bible which gives the translators opinion [which is why it is bracketed] of the word instead of the actual word? 

Here is the literal translation from Greek.
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInter...f/1jo3.pdf



Note how the literal translation says "Cain out of the wicked one was". The Greek word used is ἐκ ek

   

Note where it says "emission out of"

ἐκ • ‎(ek)

  1. (of place)
            1. (of motion) Out of, from
            2. from, with the source of
            3. to denote change from one place or condition to another
            4. to express separation of distinction from a number
            5. (of position) outside, beyond
  2. (of time)
            1.from, since
            2. (of particular points of time) just, after
            3. during, in
  3. (of origin)
            1. (of materials) made out of something
            2. (of descent, parentage) descended from
            3. (of causation) done by someone, something
            4. of the cause, instrument, or means by which a thing is done
            5. from, according to
            6. turns a following noun into a periphrastic adverb
            7. (with numerals) in such an order

Also

Matthew 1:20
But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of (ἐκ) the Holy Ghost.

There's that word again...
If you guys would use just a little bit of logic you'd realize that if Jesus was the only man on the earth born with out sin because of his virgin birth, then sex had something to do with original sin.

Guess who else thought it was fruit? Cain. Which is why he made a offering of fruit to God and it was rejected, because he didn't have a revelation of what really happened.

What happened in Eden had nothing to do with fruit, It is told in that manner because every scripture has compound meaning... Did not Jesus say that the scriptures testify of him? So not only is the story of Eden illustrating what happened in the garden it is also illustrating the future crucifixion of Jesus...


besides if you're just going to use whatever version, then how about these.

New Life Version
Do not be like Cain. He was a child of the devil and killed his brother. Why did he kill him? It was because he did what was sinful and his brother did what was right.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Don't be like Cain. He was a child of the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did Cain murder his brother? Because the things Cain did were evil and the things his brother did had God's approval.

Weymouth New Testament
We are not to resemble Cain, who was a child of the Evil one and killed his own brother. And why did he kill him? Because his own actions were wicked and his brother's actions righteous.

---

And why can it not have been metaphorical? After all, the famed "son of God" remark actually started off as an expression that had been applied to others as a metaphor.

For instance:

• Psalm 2 is built around the 'King of Israel as Son of God' motif, and Psalm 82 calls the Judges of old "sons of the Most High", and Psalm 89:26-8 has the psalmist (presumably King David) called God's son.
  
• In Jeremiah 31, God calls himself the father of Israel, with Ephraim as his firstborn son.
  
• Going into the apocrypha, Sirach 4:10 says: "Be as a father unto the fatherless, and instead of an husband unto their mother: so shalt thou be as the son of the most High, and he shall love thee more than thy mother doth." (And, yes, the people behind the King James Bible actually translated the Apocrypha)
  
• It should also be noted that this epithet was actually applied to certain rabbis in the Talmud.
  

And that's not even pointing out the many non-Hebrew instances in history of powerful people being termed sons of god, more or less as metaphor, dating back to at least around a millennium before Christ.

With all this in mind, Huggy Bear, why is it not possible that my interpretation of it as a metaphor (meaning roughly what was bracketed in the Amplified version I posted) is more plausible than a Eve having sex with a reptile, having a child with it, the Bible never bringing it up in anything more than obliquely worded phrases (especially considering that, from my readings, if a Biblical set of siblings has a different father, they tend to bring that up up front, especially with a conclusion as dramatic) that are ultimately still consistent with Cain and Abel being full siblings?

[Huggy Bear]

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amplified_Bible

So your solution is to post a version of that Bible which gives the translators opinion [which is why it is bracketed] of the word instead of the actual word? 

Here is the literal translation from Greek.
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInter...f/1jo3.pdf



Note how the literal translation says "Cain out of the wicked one was". The Greek word used is ἐκ ek

   

Note where it says "emission out of"

ἐκ • ‎(ek)

  1. (of place)
            1. (of motion) Out of, from
            2. from, with the source of
            3. to denote change from one place or condition to another
            4. to express separation of distinction from a number
            5. (of position) outside, beyond
  2. (of time)
            1.from, since
            2. (of particular points of time) just, after
            3. during, in
  3. (of origin)
            1. (of materials) made out of something
            2. (of descent, parentage) descended from
            3. (of causation) done by someone, something
            4. of the cause, instrument, or means by which a thing is done
            5. from, according to
            6. turns a following noun into a periphrastic adverb
            7. (with numerals) in such an order

Also

There's that word again...
If you guys would use just a little bit of logic you'd realize that if Jesus was the only man on the earth born with out sin because of his virgin birth, then sex had something to do with original sin.

Guess who else thought it was fruit? Cain. Which is why he made a offering of fruit to God and it was rejected, because he didn't have a revelation of what really happened.

What happened in Eden had nothing to do with fruit, It is told in that manner because every scripture has compound meaning... Did not Jesus say that the scriptures testify of him? So not only is the story of Eden illustrating what happened in the garden it is also illustrating the future crucifixion of Jesus...


besides if you're just going to use whatever version, then how about these.

---

And why can it not have been metaphorical? After all, the famed "son of God" remark actually started off as an expression that had been applied to others as a metaphor.

For instance:

• Psalm 2 is built around the 'King of Israel as Son of God' motif, and Psalm 82 calls the Judges of old "sons of the Most High", and Psalm 89:26-8 has the psalmist (presumably King David) called God's son.
  
• In Jeremiah 31, God calls himself the father of Israel, with Ephraim as his firstborn son.
  
• Going into the apocrypha, Sirach 4:10 says: "Be as a father unto the fatherless, and instead of an husband unto their mother: so shalt thou be as the son of the most High, and he shall love thee more than thy mother doth." (And, yes, the people behind the King James Bible actually translated the Apocrypha)
  
• It should also be noted that this epithet was actually applied to certain rabbis in the Talmud.
  

And that's not even pointing out the many non-Hebrew instances in history of powerful people being termed sons of god, more or less as metaphor, dating back to at least around a millennium before Christ.

With all this in mind, Huggy Bear, why is it not possible that my interpretation of it as a metaphor (meaning roughly what was bracketed in the Amplified version I posted) is more plausible than a Eve having sex with a reptile, having a child with it, the Bible never bringing it up in anything more than obliquely worded phrases (especially considering that, from my readings, if a Biblical set of siblings has a different father, they tend to bring that up up front, especially with a conclusion as dramatic) that are ultimately still consistent with Cain and Abel being full siblings?

*emphasis mine*
First of all, get the idea of the serpent being a reptile out of your head, it was humanoid. The serpent was cursed to crawl on his belly as punishment for what he had done, that tells you right there that is had a completely different form than it currently does.

[Excited Penguin]

---

---

And why can it not have been metaphorical? After all, the famed "son of God" remark actually started off as an expression that had been applied to others as a metaphor.

For instance:

• Psalm 2 is built around the 'King of Israel as Son of God' motif, and Psalm 82 calls the Judges of old "sons of the Most High", and Psalm 89:26-8 has the psalmist (presumably King David) called God's son.
  
• In Jeremiah 31, God calls himself the father of Israel, with Ephraim as his firstborn son.
  
• Going into the apocrypha, Sirach 4:10 says: "Be as a father unto the fatherless, and instead of an husband unto their mother: so shalt thou be as the son of the most High, and he shall love thee more than thy mother doth." (And, yes, the people behind the King James Bible actually translated the Apocrypha)
  
• It should also be noted that this epithet was actually applied to certain rabbis in the Talmud.
  

And that's not even pointing out the many non-Hebrew instances in history of powerful people being termed sons of god, more or less as metaphor, dating back to at least around a millennium before Christ.

With all this in mind, Huggy Bear, why is it not possible that my interpretation of it as a metaphor (meaning roughly what was bracketed in the Amplified version I posted) is more plausible than a Eve having sex with a reptile, having a child with it, the Bible never bringing it up in anything more than obliquely worded phrases (especially considering that, from my readings, if a Biblical set of siblings has a different father, they tend to bring that up up front, especially with a conclusion as dramatic) that are ultimately still consistent with Cain and Abel being full siblings?

*emphasis mine*
First of all, get the idea of the serpent being a reptile out of your head, it was humanoid. The serpent was cursed to crawl on his belly as punishment for what he had done, that tells you right there that is had a completely different form than it currently does.

No, huggy, snakes didn't use to be humans. That's factually incorrect. Learn some biology.

This is why Christianity is simply wrong. It makes claims about reality that are simply impossible, given our current scientific understanding of the world.