Something or nothing

[TheDarkestOfAngels]

Fair enough. When I had posted that response I had just gotten done with a long and involved post in response to a much less nuanced arguement so that may have trickled over to my response here.

of course you may take issuUe with these points, I'd appreciate yor view

The thing about theists is that the reason they propose the arguement in the first place is sort of a self-contradictory arguement in that if there were no god, we wouldn't be here, ergo God had to create the universe for us to be here.

They tend to think that science backs this claim up because of some of the gaps in our understanding of the early universe. We don't understand how or where the super-singularity of the earliest times of the universe formed. We have many hypothosis..es..ies... unproven theories about how such a thing could occur but very little in supporting evidence.

Because of this, they reason that because we don't know that god must have done it or was involved in some manner or another.

Still, I can't really say anything beyond that because I am rarely told details beyond the above and what details there are changes with each presentation of this arguement, but there is a clear logical, rational, and certainly evident divide between the postulate (we don't know) and the conclusion (goddunit).

As such, all this really means is that many theists who usually make these arguements appear to lack the understanding of the science behind the beginning of the universe. In other words, creationists, anti-intellectuals, etc. - that sort of thing. Their analogy is wrong because an empty universe would never produce people and even if the natural chance of a life-habitable universe were extremely small, it would still be the only human-producing universe precisely because it's the only kind we can live in. It's the same arguement used to state that god exists, created man, and created the world we live in because the earth is so perfect for us and life-habitable planets are extremely rare in the observed universe. It's the same idea.

The interesting thing about the rare-earth arguement is that simultaneously, there are a lot of places even within our own solar system where there is a distinct possibility of life - Eureopa, Titan, Mars, Callisto, Ganymede, comets, etc. And many more places that could support humans - the moon, Venus (above the cloud tops), etc. This invalidates the idea that the earth was made specifically for us because our own technological progress can allow us to live in many other climes around the solar system and means that life on earth isn't unique or even uniquely suited for human life, which puts another blow to the earth-is-special arguement.

[Captain Scarlet]

@dark. I'm rather taken with the argument that says that if god created and designed the universe then the 'purpose' of it was clearly for black holes as there ae many more black holes in the universe than us, they have been around a lot longer than us and it's where most of the matter is. We are just biological by product in a dull solar system. And if you really insist of life being the purpose then why look beyond bacteria, some of the earliest and most numerous.

Evidentially I think the conclusions are that there are other goldilocks environments and that life is more or less inevitable. I think I need more evidence to believe that although I am open minded. But even if false it certainly does not mean that we are special.