"the movement."

[Drich]

Well, that's the thing. I wasn't quoting some crazy right wing annalist. I quoted the BLM official website. 

So, are you saying it's also fair game to judge all Christians based on what their official holy book says?  Because if that's the case, boy, are y'all crazy (seriously; death penalty for picking up sticks on Sunday?).  

This is the problem with any group that gets too big and diverse: there are going to be groups who agree with the website and those who don't.  Groups have this way of factioning off.

yes.

Just do so honestly.

[The Grand Nudger]

This nation was indeed baptized in blood.

Ramen.

"Excuse me sir, would you mind very much removing your jackboot from my throat" doesn't seem like a request laden with much prospect for success. While I don't think violence is a solution, it sure in hell is an attention-getter.

Oh, I think it is, lol.   It's not as if these fuckers respond to reason or compassion.  Pop-pop-pop.  Murica!  Fuck yeah.  Comin throug to save the motherfuckin day-yay. 

[Iroscato]

You think I give a shit about your opinion?  Why, you aint white.

See what happens when you open that can?  Lap it up, accept it, denying it is to discredit your own bullshit.  If you're comfortable with the bigotry expressed herein, well...be fucking comfortable.  It's your bed, you made it.

Is that the best you got sport?

Or are you too afraid to you the 'good words?'

Or did you really think that would be the first time I Every heard such a thing? Oh, looordy be, what wills I doo?
Rhythm sho did puts me in my place.. Buts I guess I's deserves it cuz I aint white!

Get over yourself you turkey neck jibber jabber honky fool!

What BLM wants effects everyone, not just turkey necked honky fools.

Is...is the above a parody of some kind? You're so cataclysmically retarded in general it's genuinely difficult to know for sure...

[The Grand Nudger]

I have no problem with people protesting. I have a problem with people rioting though. And what I wrote about is what a lot of people perceive. Maybe you don't, but tens of millions do.

Tens of millions are uncomfortable with justified violence.  I'm not.  

As to BLM, I happen to think it's chosen some awful martyrs and fomented riots due to the tone of its discourse. And I think what's missing from it is any sense of introspection. There's very little, if anything, that communicates that they need to do something to improve their communities. It's all outwardly directed, and I see absolutely no way that's ever going to improve the lives of black people in this country because that's what's been done since the 1960s and for the amount of effort that's gone into it, the results have been pretty poor. When conservatives excoriate Democrats for the results they've gotten in this particular area, can you really argue with them? 

Good luck assassinating a movement by assassinating it's perceived leaders.  It's perceived ideology.   It's perceived sleights.

And what do we, myself included, call Rust Belt Trump voters? Bumpkins, rednecks, hillbillies, etc. And there's no social repercussions for it. We can say, "Go get an education because your factory jobs aren't coming back" and it's perfectly acceptable. The tone can be harsh, dismissive, and unforgiving, as if those aren't real concerns and those aren't real people with real families. But the liberal attitude in general is "tough shit." And now we've seen pushback in the form of the most unqualified bastard to ever be POTUS.

Yeah, tough shit....so?  I'm a child of Dixie...and even -I- can see that.  Pushback?  Fuck em.

[Aristocatt]

In response specifically to Rust Belt voters who lost their jobs to globalism.
That was a real failure of the government.
The standard Trade Adjustment Assistence programs were already shown to only be marginally effective. We kept expanding coverage without seriously looking into how we can get people to act on the coverage available. It's one small part of the reason that Obama took Behavioral Sciences seriously after his second election.
https://sbst.gov/

[Drich]

Then I began to think, in the history of the world, have Sub-Saharan Africans (S-SA) EVER in recorded history established a ideal empire, or a successful culturally and economically stable country? I could not come up with one example.

What were you hoping to prove if you did find an example of some "ideal" Sub-Saharan African empire?  How did this thought process relate to the discussion they were having on the radio?

The radio discussion was about the changing goals of BLM, it started out with what the movement initially was about and it commented on the changes that have been made with in the organization in such a short time.

'The Movement' was where it ultimately ended. I thought let's go one step further, if BLM wants to be a political power then what social structure, what type of culture is it modeling itself after? Obviously it takes issue with democracy (per the manifesto,) so what form of government will ultimately take shape/take hold If the "Demands of the Movement" are granted?

Then I thought if everything is black based/black, to the exclusions of all other races then what model of society are the leaders of BLM drawing from? or are they just 'winging it?' What great utopia is fueling this need for absolute political independence? Then I though have black people even looked how how they govern themselves when they have complete and total free reign to do whatever when ever?

Hence the question, can anyone name a successful 'black' civilization? Is there one currently? Is there one not dependent on a modified 'hunter/warrior' society mentality? Can we have an example of a working societal model and implement it in western culture do one degree or another and it not cause total anarchy? Can we treat our women and children as this 'great black society did' can we treat our neighbors the same? what about disputes how where they resolved? that sort of thing... Again if we are to implement this black-topia should we at least see it in action first?

all honest questions.. If we are to seriously look at the BLM manifesto and even seriously consider it, we need to ask these questions.

So I got home pulled up a map of Africa and started looking at all of the different countries where sub-saharan Africans rule or where the primary populace is S-SA. these nations are often time war torn, treat women poorly, lots of civil war and infighting (anti establishment) where the strongest war lord rules.

I maybe wrong, as i did not research every country's history, but from what I know I can not seem to remember any of these S-SA countries EVER being a model country, ever contributing to the world economy or ever being a shining example for all black people to look up to...

Okay...so what does this mean to you?  After your research, how does this relate to the radio discussion?

See the above for greater detail, but the short answer is, if black people can not construct a working society that does not implode once a single ruler dies, then again why disrupt a working model, isn't that all a bit selfish?

Even better. IF African American society in the US IS that pinnacle is the best S-SA society has to offer then why throw the baby out with the bath water?

If you do not agree with this statement allow me to rephrase it...

Can you name a S-SA society that has or ever had greater societal strength, standing and social influence than African americans have now at this time and in this country?

After a moment of thought  I started to look at the term African American, and remembered Liberia was the only REAL "AFRICAN/American" country/culture. As it was established/founded on slaves that were returned to Africa, After the civil war... That country is... a train wreck to put it nicely. Meaning if the descendants of slaves were literally given their own country with all the influence and skills learned from working in the fields, were given their own country Liberia would literally be that country. Raceism is rampant, there is a heavy handed onsided approach towards the 'native liberians' They are forced to live in certain areas, and treated as wild animals. Not to mention the ecconomic status and over all state of the nation is always in question. (civil conflict and corruption)

Meaning if the descendants. . .

No, meaning IF the slaves themselves knowing first hand how a society works, can't pull off a working model where they have far superior skills, Direct support from the US and a far greater intellect than the indigenous people, then how do their descendants who do not have the majority nor the funding plan to suplant a working government? Plan to 'take over?' Is the Charlotte riots, and burning down CVS drugs stores it? Is that the big plan?? Now say we elected clinton and it worked, then what will they supplant current society with? legislation that sounds good? that benfits them in the moment with no concern for the future? Kinda like how the Liberians did?

It sounded like you almost were making a point in this paragraph, but again it just trailed off into a list of facts with no meaning attached to them.

sorry thought you might be able to connect the dots yourself.
I always try and think the best of people. Eitherway it is no bother to explain. I just find some see it as me talking down to people when I explain things too deeply. So i leave it open for questions.

Meaning what exactly?  Where did you complete this thought?  If "random list of facts" then _______

Here even simpler:
If American slaves know what it is to be treated as second class citizens, then why when they got the opportunity to be kings/masters in their own right did they re institute the same failed B/S that cause the civil war in the US? Liberia has never outgrown it's segregational policies and as a direct result the nation itself is stunted in growth by civil war after civil war.

So again, if black people don't have a working model of a society, then why are they looking to implement the failures/segergational policies found in the histories of their collective societies in America today? (which again are outlined in the manifesto i linked in the OP)

Now that said I am assuming the leadership of BLM is not wanting to inject this kinda of chaos into wesrtern culture.. (if they did, then f-them they need to be takenout as this is little more than terrorism/again google the history of liberia)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Liberia

Probably a solid assumption to make.  Glad we came to the conclusion that investigating Liberia isn't going to help us understand what African American Culture means.

When did this happen? this 'investigation and conclusion?

Oh, you mean when you could not derive a point unless i connected all the dots and shaded everything in for you.. Well now that is done, we can re-examine Liberian example and take and apply historical president where it applies.
Well, the intellectually honest can. You it seems may have some.. 'trouble' reading things you do not like.

That said I earnestly began to search for examples of successful modern black culture... What I found were examples all tied into modern western white culture. I also began to run a mental list of some of the communities on the opposite end of the spectrum, they too were dominated by 'black culture' in America. black culture that closly paralelled that of what Liberians have done.

I am personally a huge fan of post hoc ergo propter hoc logic too.  Glad we are on the same page here.

Great! maybe you can cite some examples in detail!!

Now my question is, what exactly is BLM trying to change? What makes the leadership think it can do any better than their brothers and sisters in liberia/devastated 'black communities' In the US? Just short of conquering and taking the resources of others what will political dominance do? Again in Liberia as with all S-SA nations they have political dominance and corruption and infighting is the result of the dozen or so nations I looked at.

Oh, that's the point you are making.  Why didn't you just ask it to begin with silly.  No clue!  I could hazard a guess, but I'll refrain from doing so.

yeah I too find it better to play it safe when dealing with an unknown, lest i be shown to be the fool.

I'm confused.  How did we get to having two separate sets of laws?

The BLM manifesto.. Don't tell me you are this invested in the conversation and did not click on the link in the OP..So much for not being made the fool..

Can anyone give an example of a S-SA country that can be a shinning example. A country who's policies would gladly be adopted by the US or EU? a country known for it's tolerance, progressive thinking and economic strength? Again, Asians, Middle easterners, Whites, Native Americans, Indians all contribute in the way of strong societies who all have something to give/offer in the way of a common unity. Meaning we all befit some philosophy, some industry, some something that the rest of the world uses and benefits from in someway.

Didn't you establish above the BLM probably isn't interested in modelling an African nation?

No, I said if they were, then they needed to be taken out as terrorists.

Not that black people do not contribute anything. Not what I am saying, as a matter of fact black people in america have contributed alot in the way of art, literature, and industrial diversity. What I am asking for is if BLM matter gets their way and interjects their policies into the US culture, what are they planning to build? A S-SA nation? 

Whew!  Glad we figured that one out.  African Americans do in fact contribute to American society.

Well like anyother culture they do indeed still have their dead beats.

Which if you honestly look at Some of our inner cities (Detroit, Chicago, LA you'd be hard pressed to tell a difference) Or are they just looking to build on a black version of white America? (where the minority makes decisions for the majority)

If the latter is the case, then what is the need for political dominance? Meaning if black people in the history of the world are at their pinnical here 'under white America' why change? Why not strive to simply be apart of America? why the need to be black lead America?

Usually to have a latter, you need a former.  What was the former again?  I must have gotten lost somewhere.  It couldn't be that they want to emulate Liberia, because you already assumed above that that wasn't the case.

That's what happens when you ad a spin, you get lost in your own bs.

Now to be apart of this discussion you can't bring what you think black lives matter is to the table. We are working with what they themselves identify is what BLM is all about. I would also like to ask we get past the first 10 pages of racism dialog. if it will help let eveyone assume I have rightfully accepted the tag of 'racist.' So then can we move to the questions I asked?

I'm not really sure what you are asking.  Are you asking what BLM stands for?  I think that's what your asking.  I think that maybe if you listened to the Radio discussion that was taking place instead of daydreaming about Liberia, you might have a better understanding.

then maybe you should step aside and let the adults talk for a while. Maybe read a little more kinda get the hang of things before you try and interject your brand of jibber jabber

[The Grand Nudger]

"Blah blah blah.  I'm a dirty racist whore."..............?

[Aristocatt]

Let's take this one step at a time.
Why do you think BLM is obviously anti-democratic?
"We envision a remaking of the current U.S. political system in order to create a real democracy" - Website you linked.

[Losty]

---

I was listening to a debate on the radio on the way home concerning black lives matter and it's ultimate end game. In that it wants 'african-american' culture to be on par with or the dominate culture in the US... What they call a 'vision for black lives' or "the movement."
https://policy.m4bl.org/

As the debate raged on, I started to wonder what is 'black culture?' Is it the angry anti establishment, pro drug misogynistic, dominate and conquer stuff rap guys are always on about? Or Is it just a mirror image/black version of established white culture? (everything is basically the same but black people are in charge) and before I could come up with an answer. The guy arguing for BLM on the radio used that term again "African American culture" for some reason the word African stuck out in my mind... Then I began to think, in the history of the world, have Sub-Saharan Africans (S-SA) EVER in recorded history established a ideal empire, or a successful culturally and economically stable country? I could not come up with one example.

For example I would say in modern times Dubai, Saudi Arabia or even Saddam's Iraq would be an example of a successful middle eastern country. Far east you have china and Japan as very good examples. Even 'native Americans' have several examples of well executed cultures/countries in central and South America. These examples are mirrored in ancient times as well. Even in northern africa where 'middle easterners' (egypt for example) rule, we have deep rich culture and examples of dynastic reign.

So I got home pulled up a map of Africa and started looking at all of the different countries where sub-saharan Africans rule or where the primary populace is S-SA. these nations are often time war torn, treat women poorly, lots of civil war and infighting (anti establishment) where the strongest war lord rules.

I maybe wrong, as i did not research every country's history, but from what I know I can not seem to remember any of these S-SA countries EVER being a model country, ever contributing to the world economy or ever being a shining example for all black people to look up to...

After a moment of thought  I started to look at the term African American, and remembered Liberia was the only REAL "AFRICAN/American" country/culture. As it was established/founded on slaves that were returned to Africa, After the civil war... That country is... a train wreck to put it nicely. Meaning if the descendants of slaves were literally given their own country with all the influence and skills learned from working in the fields, were given their own country Liberia would literally be that country. Raceism is rampant, there is a heavy handed onsided approach towards the 'native liberians' They are forced to live in certain areas, and treated as wild animals. Not to mention the ecconomic status and over all state of the nation is always in question. (civil conflict and corruption)

Now that said I am assuming the leadership of BLM is not wanting to inject this kinda of chaos into wesrtern culture.. (if they did, then f-them they need to be takenout as this is little more than terrorism/again google the history of liberia)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Liberia

That said I earnestly began to search for examples of successful modern black culture... What I found were examples all tied into modern western white culture. I also began to run a mental list of some of the communities on the opposite end of the spectrum, they too were dominated by 'black culture' in America. black culture that closly paralelled that of what Liberians have done.

Now my question is, what exactly is BLM trying to change? What makes the leadership think it can do any better than their brothers and sisters in liberia/devastated 'black communities' In the US? Just short of conquering and taking the resources of others what will political dominance do? Again in Liberia as with all S-SA nations they have political dominance and corruption and infighting is the result of the dozen or so nations I looked at.

Look I know the first knee jerk reaction is a call to arms/racism. Get that oout of your system over and look at the facts/questions i asked. Would you openly vote for a guy who wants two sets of laws in this country? The laws black people make for themselves and the laws governing everyone else? (check out the blm link) like in Liberia.

Can anyone give an example of a S-SA country that can be a shinning example. A country who's policies would gladly be adopted by the US or EU? a country known for it's tolerance, progressive thinking and economic strength? Again, Asians, Middle easterners, Whites, Native Americans, Indians all contribute in the way of strong societies who all have something to give/offer in the way of a common unity. Meaning we all befit some philosophy, some industry, some something that the rest of the world uses and benefits from in someway.

Not that black people do not contribute anything. Not what I am saying, as a matter of fact black people in america have contributed alot in the way of art, literature, and industrial diversity. What I am asking for is if BLM matter gets their way and interjects their policies into the US culture, what are they planning to build? A S-SA nation?

Which if you honestly look at Some of our inner cities (Detroit, Chicago, LA you'd be hard pressed to tell a difference) Or are they just looking to build on a black version of white America? (where the minority makes decisions for the majority)

If the latter is the case, then what is the need for political dominance? Meaning if black people in the history of the world are at their pinnical here 'under white America' why change? Why not strive to simply be apart of America? why the need to be black lead America?

Now to be apart of this discussion you can't bring what you think black lives matter is to the table. We are working with what they themselves identify is what BLM is all about. I would also like to ask we get past the first 10 pages of racism dialog. if it will help let eveyone assume I have rightfully accepted the tag of 'racist.' So then can we move to the questions I asked?

Seriously this is a hard question to ask, but if BLM is to be seriously considered someone needs to ask these question or at least entertain what a BLM view of America would look like to it's logical end.

---

tl;dr "I don't understand multiculturalism, egalitarianism or history, luv Drich"

^^^

[Thumpalumpacus]

then maybe you should step aside and let the adults talk for a while. Maybe read a little more kinda get the hang of things before you try and interject your brand of jibber jabber

This is a doctor in dire need of tasting his own prescription, on both counts.