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Jesus did not rise from the dead -- My debate opening statement.
#11
RE: Jesus did not rise from the dead -- My debate opening statement.
Quote:He simply noted that Jesus had existed and had been executed by a Roman governor, Pontius Pilate.  Implicit in his silence, Tacitus knew who Jesus was, a religious loon who had been put to death by the Roman authorities, one of many, in fact.

No, he did not.  Tacitus, even if the passage is not a much later interpolation, never heard of anyone named "jesus."  The passage as it exists now refers to "Christus"  ( and more than likely said "Chrestus" originally).  Neither Suetonius, Pliny nor Tacitus ever heard of any fucking "jesus."  In fact, the first Greco-Roman writer to refer to anyone named "jesus" was Celsus writing 6 decades after Tacitus died.


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#12
RE: Jesus did not rise from the dead -- My debate opening statement.
(24th December 2016, 12:43)Jehanne Wrote:
(24th December 2016, 12:30)purplepurpose Wrote: If you were polite and present your provocative material gradually, you would get a few days of chatting. Or you just afraid to speak to a lot of sincere believers?

Been there, done that.  Being a former believe myself, I understand their mindset all too well.

Then you might know that believers simply wish to attain eternal life someday for leading a good life. It has nothing to do with evidence.

You behave in an excellent manner according to Gods standards - you become Gods "little angel". And if there isn't a God... Pascal Wager made a good point regarding that problem.
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#13
RE: Jesus did not rise from the dead -- My debate opening statement.
(24th December 2016, 12:55)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:He simply noted that Jesus had existed and had been executed by a Roman governor, Pontius Pilate.  Implicit in his silence, Tacitus knew who Jesus was, a religious loon who had been put to death by the Roman authorities, one of many, in fact.

No, he did not.  Tacitus, even if the passage is not a much later interpolation, never heard of anyone named "jesus."  The passage as it exists now refers to "Christus"  ( and more than likely said "Chrestus" originally).  Neither Suetonius, Pliny nor Tacitus ever heard of any fucking "jesus."  In fact, the first Greco-Roman writer to refer to anyone named "jesus" was Celsus writing 6 decades after Tacitus died.

I am not a Roman classical scholar, just some guy positing messages on the Internet.  Having said that, the reference by Tacitus to Jesus is considered to be authentic:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on...ical_value

(24th December 2016, 12:57)purplepurpose Wrote:
(24th December 2016, 12:43)Jehanne Wrote: Been there, done that.  Being a former believe myself, I understand their mindset all too well.

Then you might know that believers simply wish to attain eternal life someday for leading a good life. It has nothing to do with evidence.

You behave in an excellent manner according to Gods standards - you become Gods "little angel". And if there isn't a God... Pascal Wager made a good point regarding that problem.

I wish to attain eternal life, also!  But, if such does not exist (and, it almost certainly doesn't), then it's a waste of time & resources, no?  As for the Wager, such presumes a lot, namely, that God exists, that one has the "right" religion to worship God, and that God prefers sycophants who are willing to ingratiate themselves towards him/her/it as opposed to honest individuals who are willing to call "a spade a spade".
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#14
RE: Jesus did not rise from the dead -- My debate opening statement.
Jehanne, I think, believers dare to dream big and work accordingly. And that's courageous. If they are willing to try to work like "slaves" to please their God and attain some sort of immortality someday, good for them.
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#15
RE: Jesus did not rise from the dead -- My debate opening statement.
(24th December 2016, 14:35)purplepurpose Wrote: Jehanne, I think, believers dare to dream big and work accordingly. And that's courageous. If they are willing to try to work like "slaves" to please their God and attain some sort of immortality someday, good for them.

The only problem is that their "god" (or "gods") do not exist, and so, they are beating against the wind.
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#16
RE: Jesus did not rise from the dead -- My debate opening statement.
(24th December 2016, 14:35)purplepurpose Wrote: Jehanne, I think, believers dare to dream big and work accordingly. And that's courageous. If they are willing to try to work like "slaves" to please their God and attain some sort of immortality someday, good for them.

It wouldn't be much of a problem if those "slaves" didn't keep trying to drag others in with them
Quote:To know yet to think that one does not know is best; Not to know yet to think that one knows will lead to difficulty.
- Lau Tzu

Join me on atheistforums Slack Cool Shades (pester tibs via pm if you need invite) Tongue

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#17
RE: Jesus did not rise from the dead -- My debate opening statement.
Quote:Having said that, the reference by Tacitus to Jesus is considered to be authentic:


By whom?  Theologians desperate to prop up their bullshit?

Here's the passage:  You find the name "jesus" in it and point it out.

Quote:Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.

Annales 14:44


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#18
RE: Jesus did not rise from the dead -- My debate opening statement.
(25th December 2016, 12:32)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:Having said that, the reference by Tacitus to Jesus is considered to be authentic:


By whom?  Theologians desperate to prop up their bullshit?

Here's the passage:  You find the name "jesus" in it and point it out.

Quote:Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.

Annales 14:44

"Christus"
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#19
RE: Jesus did not rise from the dead -- My debate opening statement.
"Christus" does not equal "Jesus."

Roman writers heard of christos long before the jesus story was invented.

And there is archaeological evidence of Chrestus in Rome itself in 37AD.

Both Christus and Chrestus were Greek words, not Latin.


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#20
RE: Jesus did not rise from the dead -- My debate opening statement.
(25th December 2016, 17:35)Minimalist Wrote: "Christus" does not equal "Jesus."

Roman writers heard of christos long before the jesus story was invented.

And there is archaeological evidence of Chrestus in Rome itself in 37AD.

Both Christus and Chrestus were Greek words, not Latin.

The fact that Tacitus says that he ("Christus") was executed by Pontius Pilate is proof-positive that he was referring to Jesus.
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