Request from a Christian.

[Brian37]

I think some of the responses from ppl were a little rude to him, to be honest. He made it very clear in his OP that he's not trying g to preach, merely trying to write a book about how some Christians treat atheists badly, in hopes of calling attention to this issue to stop it. I don't really blame him for leaving.

Stop it? When has religion/the Church ever stopped attacking its enemies? Lol.

CL is also not being fair to us failing to take into account that not even we agree as atheists and have gone after each other here too. 

Some gun owners and Trump atheists here, and they all know how I feel about both. 

But yea, kinda unfair for a religious person to tell us not to attack them when we are surrounded by theists who attack us.

[Dragonspride1995]

Listen guys and gals. You keep asking me to justify my beliefs, or comment on the beliefs of others. That's not what I came here to do. I would like to hear of your negative experiences with Christians. I would also like if possible you clarify what denomination they come from.

The only thing I can think of aside from the usual online apologist's motivated insincerity and condescension is something that happened when I attended my father's Methodist church with him as a young adult, probably between 25 and 28.

I did it for him as I knew it was important to him even though I had no shred of belief in his god.  I went along with everything, making rationalizations to myself as to what it all meant to the people there and looking for ways to relate to those goals myself.  It all went well until some general back and forth started up about missionaries the church was supporting, probably intended to elicit still more giving.  Finding an opportunity to speak up, I asked if it was really necessary for the whole world to put on a tie and sit in a pew on Sundays.  I went on to say I thought it was fine for them to do it, but wouldn't the world be a poorer place if everyone set aside their own customs to do the same.

That didn't go over very well.  The pastor guy asked someone what he'd do if he had a snake in his midst.  He'd keep a watch on it, he answered.  So inspire of my best efforts to give my father what he wanted and be respectful to these people who mattered to him, I was still just a snake to them.  Something dangerous and probably of 'satan'.  This didn't feel too good because I was honestly trying to be respectful myself while offering criticism in a measured way.

Hope that helps.

Yea there is a problem with this. I think parents should hold of kids being baptised till they are 18, you know just so they are fully aware of the choice they are being asked to make. I've heard lots of stories from atheists who ask the most innocent of questions being treated like that. And that is one of the main reasons why im thinking about writing this book. The pastors are human, they sin just like us all. But that dosn't justify the way you guys are treated.

[Astonished]

The only thing I can think of aside from the usual online apologist's motivated insincerity and condescension is something that happened when I attended my father's Methodist church with him as a young adult, probably between 25 and 28.

I did it for him as I knew it was important to him even though I had no shred of belief in his god.  I went along with everything, making rationalizations to myself as to what it all meant to the people there and looking for ways to relate to those goals myself.  It all went well until some general back and forth started up about missionaries the church was supporting, probably intended to elicit still more giving.  Finding an opportunity to speak up, I asked if it was really necessary for the whole world to put on a tie and sit in a pew on Sundays.  I went on to say I thought it was fine for them to do it, but wouldn't the world be a poorer place if everyone set aside their own customs to do the same.

That didn't go over very well.  The pastor guy asked someone what he'd do if he had a snake in his midst.  He'd keep a watch on it, he answered.  So inspire of my best efforts to give my father what he wanted and be respectful to these people who mattered to him, I was still just a snake to them.  Something dangerous and probably of 'satan'.  This didn't feel too good because I was honestly trying to be respectful myself while offering criticism in a measured way.

Hope that helps.

Yea there is a problem with this. I think parents should hold of kids being baptised till they are 18, you know just so they are fully aware of the choice they are being asked to make. I've heard lots of stories from atheists who ask the most innocent of questions being treated like that. And that is one of the main reasons why im thinking about writing this book. The pastors are human, they sin just like us all. But that dosn't justify the way you guys are treated.

And you saying stuff like that doesn't strike you as being offensive to us at all? I seem to recall mentioning that one of the things Christians did to get under my skin was to say things like that. Doesn't make it any better that I'm not a child anymore.

[Dragonspride1995]

I've had a motorcycle vandalized by Christians, I've had rocks thrown through my windows by Christians, I had to buy a house through a front because the owners instructed the estate agents not to sell to non-Protestants, and I was very nearly killed by a bomb planted by Christian militants.

On a smaller scale, I've had to put up with Christians who visit this board without - clearly - having read the rules first.

Boru

This is an atheist forum, but we welcome Christians. You belong here, so no worries about that.

If you want examples of negative experiences from Christians from me, then I can help. When I came out as transgender, my parents used whatever they could find in the bible to argue with me, and then ostracized me from the family as much as they could. They still contact me sometimes, but not without saying something hurtful. I try to distance myself from them because of this, but then they try to make me look bad to the rest of the family for doing so.

I'll note that this applies to a select few Christians and I don't blame others for it. I'm dating a Christian right now, so I'm fine with those who don't include hate in their religion. I prefer to be the live and let live type, but there's always those who don't agree with me.

OP could you please repost your testimony,here in the forum on this thread if indeed it isnt copy/pasted all over the internet?

I think it's worth writing a book on the discord that religion creates amongst family and interpersonal relations. For instance when I deconverted, I had a lot of misconceptions thrown my way by my family that I think could be remedied by simple understanding and education. I'd have family members throw in preconceived nktions in their sentences to me like, "I know you think it's a crazy idea, but I think God has a plan for everyone and everything".
Looking through their eyes, they must think that I've concluded that they are indèed crazy for praying to themselves and believing in apropos of nothing! To be quite honest, I don't. But it's a really tough subject to bring up! I've had to reach out to them in other ways, like when I saw them watching that show Ghost Adventures, I sat down and watched it with them. Of course they couldnt help saying stuff like "I know you don't believe in ghosts but the documekted evidence these guys get.." -- and I'd have to stop them and ask them why I necessarily don't believe in ghosts if I don't believe in god? I'd tell them I don't know if ghosts are real or not, and I think ghost hunting would be fun, but I can't say they aren't, just like I can't say god isn't real either. I'm still actively seeking proof for both, and until I do then the jury's still out. I'm not going to condemn someone for believing in god, though. And I'm not going to take the bible or any other religious text at anything but face value: edited versions of ancient texts written at least a generation after the fact. 
As a matter of fact, Ghost Adventures to this day and hour and minute, is a bonding experience for me and my family because it's fun to get lost in possibly believing in the super natural. 

More intolerant family members like my brother, mentioned that I shouldn't come crawling to him when I'm a puke slathered corpse on the side of the highway (apparently he thought I had a drinking problem that was now uncontrolled without god in my life). For the record, I'm allergic to most alcohol and fight hard just to finish all of the drink I paid for on the rare occassions I get out to restaurants! 
He also said that he couldn't stajd being in the same room as non believers, and that my non belief was reason for why he couldn't come visit me. He also cited my mother, who is a Christian ad lesbian, as another sin he could not bear to be aro7nd, even on her death bed in the hospital having had a heart attack! 
I had a couson recently ditch her girlfriend of 4 years for frivolous violations, in turn removing this very kind heart from the life of her son, who looked at the girlfriend as his only parental role model since he'd been raised by her. "Dundee" was his father figure for the entirety of his 5yr old life, and now has zero contact allowed by his mother. She's taken back her doctrine based life as a Catholic, and the family albeit split half on her side halfsaying it's not right--is already washing off the stain as nothing ever having happened. I think thats the worst, when it comes to religionis the purposeful closing of one's eyes, ears, and mouth in matters that leave them conflicted in their beliefs. At least when I was a Christian, I believed the OT was irrelevant and I didnt judge people on how they lived their lives but rather focused on judging myself! No, that didn't go over very well and I'm now recovering mentally from the anxiety disorders that that caused. Luckily O did give up the ghost beliefs, in the emd, because now I don't go around my home thinking I'm being watched--and am fine being in the same room with my step sister, whose a witch! Had a lovely Christmas, I did. After I got my mom past the fact that I do celebrate my favorite holiday still.

Ayways theres so much more, I'll try to think of it and come back here. Hopefully you too come back and share your testimony!

If you are speaking about the stuff in deuteronomy and a lot of the stuff from the old testament no. Again theological reasons that I won't get into unless specifically asked about in respect for the context of the thread. Basicly, The mosaic covenant. As for prayers, would you rather we not say anything at all and pray for you anyways?

I think I know the answer anyway but you are right that's off topic. As for prayer I don't care what anyone prays about, that's their business, but I don't appreciate it when they know I don't believe in that, that I think it's useless, and yet they still come up to me and tell me they will get their god to fix my body.
One; it may never work and I may never have children so even if I did believe and was naive enough that is just giving me false hope which isn't what I need. I need a friend to be supportive and realistic.
Two; 'you' sound conflicted when you say that because god is supposed to be all knowing and already has a plan. What good is a prayer then? Either he already made the decision to let me have kids or he already said no. Their pray shouldn't move anything in my favor. If I get enough of them does that tip the odds? Does he listen to just those prayers and not someone else's that can't have children also?
Three; It's rude, to me at least, to tell someone you are involving them in your religion. I know full well if I was someone that required sacrifice and chanting and I told my Christian coworker that I would sacrifice a fly in her name so she had better luck in whatever she was doing and I actually meant it she would go ballistic. Even if I said I would pray to Allah for her she would glare at me. I would love to see her reaction to me saying I was a Satanist and involving her name in my ceremonies.

Listen guys and gals. You keep asking me to justify my beliefs, or comment on the beliefs of others. That's not what I came here to do. I would like to hear of your negative experiences with Christians. I would also like if possible you clarify what denomination they come from.

The only thing I can think of aside from the usual online apologist's motivated insincerity and condescension is something that happened when I attended my father's Methodist church with him as a young adult, probably between 25 and 28.

I did it for him as I knew it was important to him even though I had no shred of belief in his god.  I went along with everything, making rationalizations to myself as to what it all meant to the people there and looking for ways to relate to those goals myself.  It all went well until some general back and forth started up about missionaries the church was supporting, probably intended to elicit still more giving.  Finding an opportunity to speak up, I asked if it was really necessary for the whole world to put on a tie and sit in a pew on Sundays.  I went on to say I thought it was fine for them to do it, but wouldn't the world be a poorer place if everyone set aside their own customs to do the same.

That didn't go over very well.  The pastor guy asked someone what he'd do if he had a snake in his midst.  He'd keep a watch on it, he answered.  So inspire of my best efforts to give my father what he wanted and be respectful to these people who mattered to him, I was still just a snake to them.  Something dangerous and probably of 'satan'.  This didn't feel too good because I was honestly trying to be respectful myself while offering criticism in a measured way.

Hope that helps.

These are the posts so far that I'm interested in using. If you guys would like to add a bit more it would be appreciated.

[rexbeccarox]

One of the Christian regulars on this very board prayed for some atheists to get cancer and AIDS.

Granted, to me it's like falling to one's knees and insisting, "I do believe in Fairies! I do! I DO!", but it's still pretty vile.

[Dragonspride1995]

Yea there is a problem with this. I think parents should hold of kids being baptised till they are 18, you know just so they are fully aware of the choice they are being asked to make. I've heard lots of stories from atheists who ask the most innocent of questions being treated like that. And that is one of the main reasons why im thinking about writing this book. The pastors are human, they sin just like us all. But that dosn't justify the way you guys are treated.

And you saying stuff like that doesn't strike you as being offensive to us at all? I seem to recall mentioning that one of the things Christians did to get under my skin was to say things like that. Doesn't make it any better that I'm not a child anymore.

saying they "sin just like us all?" Offends you?  I honestly had no intention to do so, I apologise.

---

One of the Christian regulars on this very board prayed for some atheists to get cancer and AIDS.

Granted, to me it's like falling to one's knees and insisting, "I do believe in Fairies! I do! I DO!", but it's still pretty vile.

That is disgusting, I would question their beliefs, and their convictions as a Christian.

[Astonished]

And you saying stuff like that doesn't strike you as being offensive to us at all? I seem to recall mentioning that one of the things Christians did to get under my skin was to say things like that. Doesn't make it any better that I'm not a child anymore.

saying they "sin just like us all?" Offends you?  I honestly had no intention to do so, I apologise.

The implication is that you consider us to all be on the same level of the playing field. This is not so. Firstly, I don't acknowledge the concept of sin as a thing, so your accusation that I engage in something that is touted to be negative is a false one (and by a judge who is a hypocrite, liar and murderer), and in fact breaks the commandment that you shall not bear false witness. Second, it implies I've got responsibility for something that I did not do (original sin) which is utter horseshit. Third, it implies I'm doing something that merits burning in hell for eternity. Fourth, it is an attempt (whether backhanded or overt) to inflict a guilt trip upon me which is a horrible thing to do to anyone, let alone with the previously mentioned implications that go along with it. I could go on, but honestly, that word is so unbelievably loaded, it is mind-blowing that you can't grasp that and think before you say something like that. And that's without even going into the idea that some people think sin is irrelevant and that faith in their imaginary friend is the only thing necessary for whatever fairy tale afterlife they've got in mind.

So if you didn't quite understand where I was coming from when I first replied to you, this is the underlying problem. There's this barrier of logic and perspective that is preventing you from seeing things in this way. I can say that I see things from your point of view because I was, however briefly, a person of faith. I daresay it is a complete impossibility for you to say the corollary of this statement is true for you.

What I will say now that I know you are trying to write a book about...I'm not really sure what the point would be from what I've read, to be honest...is that there is no way for you to clean up religion, to make it something pure, something good, something that has been romanticized in the way that you seem to believe it to be. That book is so full of hatred, intolerance, violence, mindlessness and the worst elements of humanity, it just cannot be done. That it's been able to fool people into thinking that for this long is, like the name says, astonishing. I can't even say it's a noble effort on your part because you've heard people telling you this before and just refuse to believe it. It's like trying to say that you can pet a porcupine in the same way you can a dog or a cat. Not only is it not true but you'll get hurt trying to prove otherwise, and anyone else you try to convince to do so.

Saying someone isn't a 'true Christian' is the height of arrogance, too, and you should know that. I can point to any page in the bible to justify a point I want to make, and then find a refutation of that on any other page I might flip to. You can't claim a book tells the truth, let alone the ultimate truth, if it contradicts itself, is derived entirely from subjective interpretations rather than objective facts, and has been proven wrong on droves of its own bogus claims about the nature of the universe. So you've stacked a delusion on top of a delusion by thinking that the bible is something it isn't, and that you can make it into that very thing that it isn't if you're not entirely correct about the first part. This "No True Scotsmen" fallacy you're committing here is blinding you to the fact that you are not justified in saying you are better than anyone who commits religious atrocities because you're getting your outlook from the same source, using the same methodology as they are. Just because you reached a different conclusion than they did doesn't mean either of you are right, since you can't use rationality to demonstrate why your position is better than theirs, or vice versa if the bible is your only criteria for deciding. Once you divorce yourself from this abominable approach to life, you'll see that it was the ultimate mistake to ever have done so in the first place. I can only give you the facts, though. You have to decide what to do with them. Oh, and the nice thing is, they're not open to interpretation so it's very clear.

[Dragonspride1995]

saying they "sin just like us all?" Offends you?  I honestly had no intention to do so, I apologise.

The implication is that you consider us to all be on the same level of the playing field. This is not so. Firstly, I don't acknowledge the concept of sin as a thing, so your accusation that I engage in something that is touted to be negative is a false one (and by a judge who is a hypocrite, liar and murderer), and in fact breaks the commandment that you shall not bear false witness. Second, it implies I've got responsibility for something that I did not do (original sin) which is utter horseshit. Third, it implies I'm doing something that merits burning in hell for eternity. Fourth, it is an attempt (whether backhanded or overt) to inflict a guilt trip upon me which is a horrible thing to do to anyone, let alone with the previously mentioned implications that go along with it. I could go on, but honestly, that word is so unbelievably loaded, it is mind-blowing that you can't grasp that and think before you say something like that. And that's without even going into the idea that some people think sin is irrelevant and that faith in their imaginary friend is the only thing necessary for whatever fairy tale afterlife they've got in mind.

So if you didn't quite understand where I was coming from when I first replied to you, this is the underlying problem. There's this barrier of logic and perspective that is preventing you from seeing things in this way. I can say that I see things from your point of view because I was, however briefly, a person of faith. I daresay it is a complete impossibility for you to say the corollary of this statement is true for you.

What I will say now that I know you are trying to write a book about...I'm not really sure what the point would be from what I've read, to be honest...is that there is no way for you to clean up religion, to make it something pure, something good, something that has been romanticized in the way that you seem to believe it to be. That book is so full of hatred, intolerance, violence, mindlessness and the worst elements of humanity, it just cannot be done. That it's been able to fool people into thinking that for this long is, like the name says, astonishing. I can't even say it's a noble effort on your part because you've heard people telling you this before and just refuse to believe it. It's like trying to say that you can pet a hedgehog in the same way you can a dog or a cat. Not only is it not true but you'll get hurt trying to prove otherwise, and anyone else you try to convince to do so.

When I wrote that I wasn't even thinking about you. When I said that what I mean is that I am not better than you. I have no moral high ground, no podium, or self righteousness. I'm not implying anything behind that. I'm saying that i've done worse than that, and for that I deserve to rot in hell. As for everything else, I don't agree with it. You are entitled to your opinions.

---

I am curious as to this line of questioning. I have made my points clear. I intend to write a book on the failings of the Church. How Christians have ostracized and demonised others. You guys are the ones bringing up theology. Heck the Title I'm thinking of is "The Fall of the Church, How Christians (have failed/Have strayed/treat others[not sure about this bit])."

[Astonished]

The implication is that you consider us to all be on the same level of the playing field. This is not so. Firstly, I don't acknowledge the concept of sin as a thing, so your accusation that I engage in something that is touted to be negative is a false one (and by a judge who is a hypocrite, liar and murderer), and in fact breaks the commandment that you shall not bear false witness. Second, it implies I've got responsibility for something that I did not do (original sin) which is utter horseshit. Third, it implies I'm doing something that merits burning in hell for eternity. Fourth, it is an attempt (whether backhanded or overt) to inflict a guilt trip upon me which is a horrible thing to do to anyone, let alone with the previously mentioned implications that go along with it. I could go on, but honestly, that word is so unbelievably loaded, it is mind-blowing that you can't grasp that and think before you say something like that. And that's without even going into the idea that some people think sin is irrelevant and that faith in their imaginary friend is the only thing necessary for whatever fairy tale afterlife they've got in mind.

So if you didn't quite understand where I was coming from when I first replied to you, this is the underlying problem. There's this barrier of logic and perspective that is preventing you from seeing things in this way. I can say that I see things from your point of view because I was, however briefly, a person of faith. I daresay it is a complete impossibility for you to say the corollary of this statement is true for you.

What I will say now that I know you are trying to write a book about...I'm not really sure what the point would be from what I've read, to be honest...is that there is no way for you to clean up religion, to make it something pure, something good, something that has been romanticized in the way that you seem to believe it to be. That book is so full of hatred, intolerance, violence, mindlessness and the worst elements of humanity, it just cannot be done. That it's been able to fool people into thinking that for this long is, like the name says, astonishing. I can't even say it's a noble effort on your part because you've heard people telling you this before and just refuse to believe it. It's like trying to say that you can pet a hedgehog in the same way you can a dog or a cat. Not only is it not true but you'll get hurt trying to prove otherwise, and anyone else you try to convince to do so.

When I wrote that I wasn't even thinking about you. When I said that what I mean is that I am not better than you. I have no moral high ground, no podium, or self righteousness. I'm not implying anything behind that. I'm saying that i've done worse than that, and for that I deserve to rot in hell. As for everything else, I don't agree with it. You are entitled to your opinions.

Then you should never have said 'we all sin'. You are very clearly putting me in the same category as you, as with everyone, regardless of religious affiliation or lack thereof. And that you could think you deserve to rot in hell is just staggering. No wonder nothing I said is getting through.

And there are plenty of books like that out there. What is the intention behind this one? To say, "But I have the solution! I have a better path!" rather than "So let's do away with this poisonous dogma!"? Because that would be hypocritical or at least counter-intuitive. Especially if you limit it to Christianity.

[Dragonspride1995]

There is a song by casting crowns called if we are a body. It asks the question. If we are the body (the Church) And Jesus taught us to be the healers of our community, the ones there to help others. Why are we judging others, why are we ostracizing people from our families why is the Church not working as intended. Thats what im trying to capture with this book. Christians have failed in their role. Its not about conversion, its about our absolute failure.