A rational explanation for hell?

[krazedkat]

What are my sins?
Pot Smoking - Haven't yet, plan to some day
Guitar Playing - Occasionally
Showing Bellybuttons - Naughty me, I showed the doctors my bellybutton when I was born, tata
Cursing - I have tourettes!
Kissing on the Mouth before Marriage - orly?
Holding Hands before Marriage - Oh noez!
Groping Breast before Marriage - End of the world!
Masturbation - o_o
Judging People (He wasn't though, he was being honest) - We all judge...
Being Selfish - YAY ME
Playing Sports - I'm too damn fit!
Watching MTV - On occasion
Associating With Hollywood - I watch movies! OHNOEZ
Listening to Techno and Rock and Roll - Best music... EVER
Believing in Evolution - Oh forgive me lawd
Being Agnostic -
Being Atheist -
Owning a Pet - My cats are epic though
Sin, Have Sinned, or Plan on Sinning in the Future - I plan to soon, oops just swore

[solja247]

Oh no I'm going to hell! But I don't smoke. Will that save me?

lol. I think Im going to hell as well! Maybe God will exempt me because I dont play the gutair, but the piano?

[Entropist]

Playing guitar... what about playing in the orchestra: Berlioz' Symphonie Fantastique, a symphonic poem about a opium smoking man who has a wild trip that culminates in a black sabbath ritual with witches.

Paganini was accused of making a deal with the devil because he was such a virtuoso.

Rock and roll isn't the only music that is "of the devil."

---

But the fruits of a Christian life glorify God and testify to the path you are walking, regardless of your belief

But still, the bottom line is what really matters: Bill Gates, no salvation for you, bucko! I don't care how many people you helped! Go join your buddy, Stalin!

[tackattack]

I think this thread has derailed beyond the point of no return...
Why do you have jones for Bill Gates? Besides maybe he is evil, I don't know what he does. I know money is the root of all evil though.

[Entropist]

I think this thread has derailed beyond the point of no return...
Why do you have jones for Bill Gates? Besides maybe he is evil, I don't know what he does. I know money is the root of all evil though.

No, I'm using him as an example of an atheist who (Windows Vista aside) uses some of his wealth in order to help people. I don't have a problem with that. My point is that, however one defines "hell" or whatever happens to those who are not "saved," there is no distinction between non-believers for what they have done. The bottom line for Christianity is that Bill Gates and Stalin are EQUALLY unsaved. Both are non-believers and based on that criterion alone they are unsaved, deserving of the Christian god's wrath. What "good" or "evil" they do, for whatever reasons is irrelevant to their punishment from the Christian god.

It doesn't matter to me because I don't believe in any of this stuff anyway. But I think it is a curious doctrine and Christians themselves contradict themselves when they say Stalin is going to "hell" because of the terrible things he did. Hypothetically speaking, he would not be deserving of the Christian god's wrath for what he did at all. He could have not killed anyone, or killed 15 million people, or 15 billion. Big deal-- he was going to hell anyway, right?

[krazedkat]

I think this thread has derailed beyond the point of no return...
Why do you have jones for Bill Gates? Besides maybe he is evil, I don't know what he does. I know money is the root of all evil though.

Ehem: the Gates foundation is the biggest charity in the world

[blood_pardon]

Hey Ace,

Can a theist here explain the reasoning behind endless torture for a finite victemless crime?
Who can give a rational reason for it?
Oh and why do people end up in hell for simply having certain thoughts or lack ther of? Who is affected by anothers beliefs (or lack ther of)?

A man asked me this same question a couple weeks ago and I was stumped. Hell is a disturbing concept to say the least and if one day I stand before the Lord and find out that it was simply human misinterpretation I will be very relieved. That being said at this point in my walk along the Way I have no reason to believe that it isn't a real state in which men exist.

I have in my mind what I want to express but please bare with me.

In order to understand the reason for Hell it's important to grasp something of what God is. He is infinitely immense. So large that everything that exists does so inside of Him. All reality is caused and held together by this maximum. He's holy, holy, holy as Isaiah wrote.

A man once said "Sin is to seek to march up to God's throne, knock Him off it, kill Him, and to seat your self there instead."

Sin is a horrid thing. I see this image of a man suspended in air, completely surrounded by the presense of God, kicking, struggling, screaming his lungs out in protest. He wants to go his own way and nothing is going to stop him. Its like a man in the hospital tearing at the cords to the life support system.

The reason men go to hell is cause and effect. The lost man ignores and treats Him as an insignificant thing on this planet and when they die what changes? God is just as present as He always was except now they can see Him.

I've heard people say that Heaven is Heaven because God is there and Hell is Hell because He isn't. I believe Heaven is Heaven because of the love of God being expressed and Hell is Hell because of the hatrid and wrath being manisfest to those who despised Him all the days of their lives.

[Skipper]

I have asked in other threads about the reasoning of sending people to hell for all eternity for a finite victemless crime. Didn't quite get an answer.

There isnt any!

Eternal hell was taken from pagan beliefs, about hades, its not supported in the Bible at all!

Granted I have never read my whole bible, (yes I have a bible, and it's one of my most treasured possessions as it was given to me when I was born by my great grandfather, the most amazing man I've ever known) but I have read the verses in my bible that certain sites have pointed me towards in regards to the bible referring to eternal hell or flame. I have read the verses surrounding those verses also as to get a good idea of the context, and there are plenty of mentions in the new testament alone of eternal fire and punishment.

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mark 3:29
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Mark 9:43
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Luke 3:17
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.


So where in the bible does it say hell is not eternal? Where does it give a less evil description of what punishment awaits us for sinning? I'm honestly trying to understand.

[Welsh cake]

Who can give a rational reason for it?

We can deduce that the God in the Bible is anything but rational, indeed irrational at the best of times, reading Romans 9.20 is a good start to uncovering how immoral, arrogant and tyrannical this beast is:-

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

...what an almighty arsehole.

[tackattack]

@Skipper.. read each of them carefully..they talk about what hell is and they do say hell is eternal. Aside from Mark 3:29 which is about committing the everlasting sin (I'll research the original Greek, but most translations don't say damnation and destruction that's total would be a permanent solution therefore eternal). All of the say hell is forever. Now read this verse in Matthew 10:28

28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

This specifically talks about what hell DOES not what it IS (eternal) and it destroys. If something is destroyed is ceases to be, including a soul. Imagine throwing a piece of cardboard into a campfire. The campfire was burning before the trash was put in and after the trash is gone will still burn. I hope this clarifies that a little for you.