Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: December 27, 2024, 4:41 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
What do you think of this argument for God?
#21
RE: What do you think of this argument for God?
(March 4, 2017 at 5:12 am)TheAtheologian Wrote: That is the main problem with it, why assume this "greatest possible being" is necessary? If we do, then it is pushing the concept into existence, which can be done with nearly anything.

However, it does not ride on the idea that anything is possible, but bases itself on whatever is possible.

Then if you don't hold to the idea that "anything is possible" you will have to accept that the actual possibilities of reality may not include the "God" that this argument is trying to define away.
Reply
#22
RE: What do you think of this argument for God?
(March 4, 2017 at 4:57 am)Alex K Wrote: @TheAtheologian,

What does "Manifestation of every logical possibility" mean? Logical deduction needs Axioms as a starting point, so this concept of greatest depends on your assumptions then?. Also, to use poor abused Goedel, "Logical possibilities" tend to include mutually contradictory statements. Does a perfect God believe in the Axiom of Choice or not or both?

It assumes logic exists independent of Humans and their rationality. A contradiction would be impossible to exist, and so does not exist in any possible world. 
All logical possibilities would be manifested in God and all logical impossibilities wouldn't.
Hail Satan!  Bow Down Diablo

Reply
#23
RE: What do you think of this argument for God?
(March 4, 2017 at 5:20 am)TheAtheologian Wrote:
(March 4, 2017 at 4:57 am)Alex K Wrote: @TheAtheologian,

What does "Manifestation of every logical possibility" mean? Logical deduction needs Axioms as a starting point, so this concept of greatest depends on your assumptions then?. Also, to use poor abused Goedel, "Logical possibilities" tend to include mutually contradictory statements. Does a perfect God believe in the Axiom of Choice or not or both?

It assumes logic exists independent of Humans and their rationality. A contradiction would be impossible to exist, and so does not exist in any possible world. 
All logical possibilities would be manifested in God and all logical impossibilities wouldn't.

Logic may well exist independent of humans, but logic is just a way to go from assumptions to conclusions.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition

Reply
#24
RE: What do you think of this argument for God?
(March 4, 2017 at 5:19 am)Jesster Wrote:
(March 4, 2017 at 5:12 am)TheAtheologian Wrote: That is the main problem with it, why assume this "greatest possible being" is necessary? If we do, then it is pushing the concept into existence, which can be done with nearly anything.

However, it does not ride on the idea that anything is possible, but bases itself on whatever is possible.

Then if you don't hold to the idea that "anything is possible" you will have to accept that the actual possibilities of reality may not include the "God" that this argument is trying to define away.

Haha, you got me there, after I typed this:
Accepting that the actual possibilities would not include God would be a contradiction since God in this case by definition is whatever the greatest possible being (remember premise 1) is. Like what I said before, the "greatest possible being" would be the manifestation of all logical possibilities, so it would be nonsense to say that the actual possibilities of reality may not include the manifestation of all logical possibilities. 
The last sentence of the two proves your point, so I have two main options:
1. Retract my claim that the "greatest possible being" is the "manifestation of all logical possibilities"
2. Retract that Premise 5 follows from Premise 4 and then this argument essentially falls apart.

(March 4, 2017 at 5:23 am)Alex K Wrote:
(March 4, 2017 at 5:20 am)TheAtheologian Wrote: It assumes logic exists independent of Humans and their rationality. A contradiction would be impossible to exist, and so does not exist in any possible world. 
All logical possibilities would be manifested in God and all logical impossibilities wouldn't.

Logic may well exist independent of humans, but logic is just a way to go from assumptions to conclusions.

I guess another assumption made would be that all objective logic is absolute.
Hail Satan!  Bow Down Diablo

Reply
#25
RE: What do you think of this argument for God?
And that's exactly why I was mostly aiming the argument about possibilities at the rest of the premises. To bring all that back to the first premise, what if the greatest possible being turns out to be nothing more than human? Would you call that being "God" by your definition? If so, then I don't see the point here.
Reply
#26
RE: What do you think of this argument for God?
My two main issues with the argument are 1) That which is possible in not required and 2) It isn't at all clear that existence is a necessary component of greatness.

Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
Reply
#27
RE: What do you think of this argument for God?
You are just arguing a slight variation of Ontological Argument developed by Anselm almost a 1000 years ago. You can get the full idea here.



Reply
#28
RE: What do you think of this argument for God?
(March 4, 2017 at 3:57 am)TheAtheologian Wrote: I heard an argument like this:

1. God is the greatest possible being.

2. God is a necessary being, which means that God exists in every possible world (If God exists). 

3. If God exists in one possible world, God must logically exist in every possible world. 

4. Since God is the greatest possible being, it follows that every aspect of God (being possible) exists in some possible world.

5. Therefore, God exists (in all possible worlds, including ours).

I actually just structured the premises this way myself but is the same idea as an argument I heard before. 

What do you think of it?

It is ancient first of all. Aquinas stole it from Kalam who in turn stole it from Aristotle.

With regards to this specific "way" of Aquinas, the fourth, it is sufficient to realise that it is a completely subjective argument to disprove it. First of all, who is defining "greatest" (usually formulated as most perfect), and how are they measuring it against extant objects?

Secondly just because you can imagine a "perfect" thing it does not follow that that thing must therefore exist, a subjective want for something to exist does not give existence to the thing. I can imagine the most invisible, most pink, most corned unicorn ever, yet that animal has no existence outside my imagination.
Urbs Antiqua Fuit Studiisque Asperrima Belli

Home
Reply
#29
RE: What do you think of this argument for God?
TheAtheologian Wrote:I heard an argument like this:

1. God is the greatest possible being.

2. God is a necessary being, which means that God exists in every possible world (If God exists). 

3. If God exists in one possible world, God must logically exist in every possible world. 

4. Since God is the greatest possible being, it follows that every aspect of God (being possible) exists in some possible world.

5. Therefore, God exists (in all possible worlds, including ours).

I actually just structured the premises this way myself but is the same idea as an argument I heard before. 

What do you think of it?

1. That's an odd definition. The common definition is along the lines of 'the creator and ruler of the universe'. This definition just calls whatever the greatest possible being is, 'God'. Maybe the 'greatest possible being' is a supercomputer made out of a network of neutron stars connected by wormholes. According to this definition, that supercomputer is God. I don't think that many people who believe in God would agree that the supercomputer is God.
2. It's entirely possible that there is a necessary thing, that 'can't not exist'. There's no reason to think that thing, if it exists, is a being. Quantum foam is a candidate for the position.
3. If God does not exist in one possible world, God must logically not exist in any possible world. There seems to be a missing step here where demonstrating that there is a possible world where God exists would be helpful.
4. How so?
5. There doesn't seem to be an actual argument preceding this conclusion.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
Reply
#30
RE: What do you think of this argument for God?
You/anyone does not get to argue a god into existence. That is an argument for belief/faith, not existence. I don't accept premise 1 and 2, therefore the argument is over.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  You think Buddhism is pro intellectualism? Woah0 5 860 September 6, 2022 at 11:09 pm
Last Post: Anomalocaris
Exclamation Why Atheism is Incoherent & You Aren't as Smart as You Think You Are Seax 60 6893 March 19, 2021 at 9:43 am
Last Post: Mister Agenda
  Do you think Scientology sells anyone on its belief? Sweden83 19 2459 December 25, 2020 at 8:34 pm
Last Post: Smaug
  Are there any theists here who think God wants, or will take care of, Global Warming? Duty 16 4243 January 19, 2020 at 11:50 am
Last Post: Smedders
  How to destroy any argument for God Drich 46 6860 October 9, 2019 at 9:02 am
Last Post: Mister Agenda
  How To Support Any Argument For God BrianSoddingBoru4 0 576 August 26, 2019 at 4:52 pm
Last Post: BrianSoddingBoru4
  How To Easily Defend Any Argument For God BrianSoddingBoru4 5 994 August 22, 2019 at 9:13 pm
Last Post: The Valkyrie
  To all religions/What makes you think...... Brian37 22 3780 February 26, 2019 at 8:46 am
Last Post: no one
  What do you think prayer is? vulcanlogician 44 7316 February 2, 2018 at 4:12 pm
Last Post: emjay
  Very short argument for God (another clear proof) Mystic 123 27375 January 26, 2018 at 8:54 pm
Last Post: Succubus



Users browsing this thread: 2 Guest(s)